ID please tiny red
ID please tiny red
I live on the west coast of Scotland (Argyll) and came across the tiniest butterfly I have ever seen. It was blood red with a fine black line along the outer edge of its wings, no other pattern. It was at rest and was approx half an inch in size. It was not the Cinabar Moth, it was definitely a butterfly.
- Trev Sawyer
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Re: ID please tiny red
Hi Holly,
If it isn't a Cinnabar moth (which actually looks quite different depending on whether it's wings are open or closed - have a squint at some Google images to see various views) then it certainly has me stumped. The only small butterfly which I can think of which might remotely fit the bill would be a Small Copper, but that is more orange/red and definitely has a pattern on its wings
What makes you say that it was" definitely a butterfly" by the way?.. Shape of wings, shape of antennae? flying during the day etc?... Maybe someone else can help you with a few more clues?
Trev
If it isn't a Cinnabar moth (which actually looks quite different depending on whether it's wings are open or closed - have a squint at some Google images to see various views) then it certainly has me stumped. The only small butterfly which I can think of which might remotely fit the bill would be a Small Copper, but that is more orange/red and definitely has a pattern on its wings
What makes you say that it was" definitely a butterfly" by the way?.. Shape of wings, shape of antennae? flying during the day etc?... Maybe someone else can help you with a few more clues?
Trev
Re: ID please tiny red
Hi Trev,
Thanks for your reply. The only difference I know about moths and butterflies is, at rest a butterflies wings are up together and a moths lie down. This one had its wings up together at rest. It was so tiny, just so baffling, wish I had had my camera with me, will take it next time I go down the beach. We've had very strong winds/gales here, unusual for this time of year, and wondered if it could have been blown here from America? as there is no land mass between us and America.
Thanks for your reply. The only difference I know about moths and butterflies is, at rest a butterflies wings are up together and a moths lie down. This one had its wings up together at rest. It was so tiny, just so baffling, wish I had had my camera with me, will take it next time I go down the beach. We've had very strong winds/gales here, unusual for this time of year, and wondered if it could have been blown here from America? as there is no land mass between us and America.
Re: ID please tiny red
Here's a real long shot ...
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Re: ID please tiny red
Some the moths also rest with wings held upright closed together above their bodies like most butterflies, particularly smaller moths of certain families.holly wrote:Hi Trev,
Thanks for your reply. The only difference I know about moths and butterflies is, at rest a butterflies wings are up together and a moths lie down. This one had its wings up together at rest. It was so tiny, just so baffling, wish I had had my camera with me, will take it next time I go down the beach. We've had very strong winds/gales here, unusual for this time of year, and wondered if it could have been blown here from America? as there is no land mass between us and America.
Without photographic evidence, very hard to identify.
Cotswold Cockney is the name
All aspects of Natural History is my game.
All aspects of Natural History is my game.
- Trev Sawyer
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Re: ID please tiny red
Hi again Holly,
Your description of how to distinguish a moth from a butterfly is a very commonly-held belief and I'm sure that a huge proportion of people would say that moths have their wings folded down over the body when at rest, but as mentioned above, quite a few moths sometimes do sometimes fold them up above the body "like a butterfly". Just to confuse matters more, some actually do both and it can be very confusing indeed as the insect may look totally different in each pose. The photo in the following link shows one with wings up. Is that more like it I wonder?
http://www.mothscount.org/text/18/faqs_and_myths.html
Sometimes the pink upper wing in this species is held further apart from the lower wing and this makes it look even more like a butterfly (sorry, I can't find a photo of that on the web at present).
Does that look like what you saw now?
Trev
Your description of how to distinguish a moth from a butterfly is a very commonly-held belief and I'm sure that a huge proportion of people would say that moths have their wings folded down over the body when at rest, but as mentioned above, quite a few moths sometimes do sometimes fold them up above the body "like a butterfly". Just to confuse matters more, some actually do both and it can be very confusing indeed as the insect may look totally different in each pose. The photo in the following link shows one with wings up. Is that more like it I wonder?
http://www.mothscount.org/text/18/faqs_and_myths.html
Sometimes the pink upper wing in this species is held further apart from the lower wing and this makes it look even more like a butterfly (sorry, I can't find a photo of that on the web at present).
Does that look like what you saw now?
Trev
Re: ID please tiny red
Hi Holly,
It wasn't one of these Pyralid Moths? We get them in our garden on the Marjaram. This photo was taken yesterday, so they're definitely on the wing at the moment. They're red, small and quite pretty. And day-flying. Apologies if it's nothing like the one you saw!
Michael
It wasn't one of these Pyralid Moths? We get them in our garden on the Marjaram. This photo was taken yesterday, so they're definitely on the wing at the moment. They're red, small and quite pretty. And day-flying. Apologies if it's nothing like the one you saw!
Michael
Re: ID please tiny red
Hi Trev,Trev Sawyer wrote:Hi Holly,
If it isn't a Cinnabar moth (which actually looks quite different depending on whether it's wings are open or closed - have a squint at some Google images to see various views) then it certainly has me stumped. The only small butterfly which I can think of which might remotely fit the bill would be a Small Copper, but that is more orange/red and definitely has a pattern on its wings
What makes you say that it was" definitely a butterfly" by the way?.. Shape of wings, shape of antennae? flying during the day etc?... Maybe someone else can help you with a few more clues?
Trev
Many thanks for your replies. Sorry it isn't a Cinnabar Moth. Maybe it blew in with the westerly gales we have had. It reminded me of the petals of a red geranium that small, with no other markings just the black line on the outer edge of its wings. It had a tiny black body. It was a vivid red.
regards,
Janet
Re: ID please tiny red
Perhaps Transparent Burnet? http://southwestscotland-butterflies.or ... egory1.jpg
These are in Argyll & if caught in wind the wings could easily be erect as per the Cinnabar above.
If so I'm sure that the local recorder Andrew Masterman would love to know exactly where it was seen.
These are in Argyll & if caught in wind the wings could easily be erect as per the Cinnabar above.
If so I'm sure that the local recorder Andrew Masterman would love to know exactly where it was seen.
Re: ID please tiny red
Hi Holly,
A real longshot but it's the only one I can find that comes close to your description. You did mention westerlies . . .
http://www.whatsthatbug.com/2009/06/16/lichen-moth-3/
Nigel
A real longshot but it's the only one I can find that comes close to your description. You did mention westerlies . . .
http://www.whatsthatbug.com/2009/06/16/lichen-moth-3/
Nigel
- Lee Hurrell
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Re: ID please tiny red
Thanks for sharing that link Nigel.
I found this lovely little snippet of info on there:
Vladimir Nabokov also stated in a 1970 interview that the Red Admiral is known as the Butterfly of Doom in Russia because large numbers migrated in 1881, the year Tsar Alexander II was assassinated.
Cheers
Lee
I found this lovely little snippet of info on there:
Vladimir Nabokov also stated in a 1970 interview that the Red Admiral is known as the Butterfly of Doom in Russia because large numbers migrated in 1881, the year Tsar Alexander II was assassinated.
Cheers
Lee
To butterfly meadows, chalk downlands and leafy glades; to summers eternal.
Re: ID please tiny red
Thanks Scott for the link but it wasn't one of those eitherScottD wrote:Perhaps Transparent Burnet? http://southwestscotland-butterflies.or ... egory1.jpg
These are in Argyll & if caught in wind the wings could easily be erect as per the Cinnabar above.
If so I'm sure that the local recorder Andrew Masterman would love to know exactly where it was seen.
Re: ID please tiny red
Thanks Nigel for the link, colour was very similar but is too big and the wings on the butterfly/moth I saw were almost round. Just a mysteryNigel P wrote:Hi Holly,
A real longshot but it's the only one I can find that comes close to your description. You did mention westerlies . . .
http://www.whatsthatbug.com/2009/06/16/lichen-moth-3/
Nigel
Re: ID please tiny red
Hi Holly,
I've just looked at my copy of WTL and on page 222 it illustrates a form of Cinnabar (f. coneyi) that matches your description.
Nigel
I've just looked at my copy of WTL and on page 222 it illustrates a form of Cinnabar (f. coneyi) that matches your description.
Nigel
Re: ID please tiny red
Thanks Nigel but what is the WTL?? Can I look on the internet for this?
Many thanks,
Janet
Many thanks,
Janet
- Pete Eeles
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Re: ID please tiny red
I'm guessing "Waring - Townsend - Lewington".
Cheers,
- Pete
Cheers,
- Pete
Life Cycles of British & Irish Butterflies: http://www.butterflylifecycles.com
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- Trev Sawyer
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Re: ID please tiny red
Yes Pete, I'm sure Nigel means the "Field Guide to the Moths of Great Britain and Ireland" by Waring, Townsend and Lewington... The write-up about the moth is on page 222, but the image is actually on page 235. I hadn't thought about a variant of a Cinnabar moth, but the f. coneyi variant is a very good guess. If Holly can find a copy of this book in one of her local bookshops, she would be able to see if that's it. If she can imagine this moth with its wings open, that would seem to be a very close match to her insect... I can't find an image of this particular variant on the web and copyright would presumably prevent us from posting a photo of that page of the book on this site.
Trev
Trev
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Re: ID please tiny red
Here's an image of a T. jacobaeae ab. coneyi from an eBay sale which ended on March 6th.Trev Sawyer wrote:I can't find an image of this particular variant on the web and copyright would presumably prevent us from posting a photo of that page of the book on this site.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0636055154
I don't know for how long the above link will be valid, so get it while you can.
Hope this helps.
Paul
- Trev Sawyer
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Re: ID please tiny red
Perfect - Thanks Paul.
Trev
Trev