ID please tiny red

[holly]

I live on the west coast of Scotland (Argyll) and came across the tiniest butterfly I have ever seen. It was blood red with a fine black line along the outer edge of its wings, no other pattern. It was at rest and was approx half an inch in size. It was not the Cinabar Moth, it was definitely a butterfly.

[Trev Sawyer]

Hi Holly,
If it isn't a Cinnabar moth (which actually looks quite different depending on whether it's wings are open or closed - have a squint at some Google images to see various views) then it certainly has me stumped. The only small butterfly which I can think of which might remotely fit the bill would be a Small Copper, but that is more orange/red and definitely has a pattern on its wings
What makes you say that it was" definitely a butterfly" by the way?.. Shape of wings, shape of antennae? flying during the day etc?... Maybe someone else can help you with a few more clues?

Trev

[holly]

Hi Trev,
Thanks for your reply. The only difference I know about moths and butterflies is, at rest a butterflies wings are up together and a moths lie down. This one had its wings up together at rest. It was so tiny, just so baffling, wish I had had my camera with me, will take it next time I go down the beach. We've had very strong winds/gales here, unusual for this time of year, and wondered if it could have been blown here from America? as there is no land mass between us and America.

[Susie]

Here's a real long shot ...

[Cotswold Cockney]

Hi Trev,
Thanks for your reply. The only difference I know about moths and butterflies is, at rest a butterflies wings are up together and a moths lie down. This one had its wings up together at rest. It was so tiny, just so baffling, wish I had had my camera with me, will take it next time I go down the beach. We've had very strong winds/gales here, unusual for this time of year, and wondered if it could have been blown here from America? as there is no land mass between us and America.

Some the moths also rest with wings held upright closed together above their bodies like most butterflies, particularly smaller moths of certain families.

Without photographic evidence, very hard to identify.

[Trev Sawyer]

Hi again Holly,
Your description of how to distinguish a moth from a butterfly is a very commonly-held belief and I'm sure that a huge proportion of people would say that moths have their wings folded down over the body when at rest, but as mentioned above, quite a few moths sometimes do sometimes fold them up above the body "like a butterfly". Just to confuse matters more, some actually do both and it can be very confusing indeed as the insect may look totally different in each pose. The photo in the following link shows one with wings up. Is that more like it I wonder?
http://www.mothscount.org/text/18/faqs_and_myths.html
Sometimes the pink upper wing in this species is held further apart from the lower wing and this makes it look even more like a butterfly (sorry, I can't find a photo of that on the web at present).
Does that look like what you saw now?

Trev

[Michaeljf]

Hi Holly,

It wasn't one of these Pyralid Moths? We get them in our garden on the Marjaram. This photo was taken yesterday, so they're definitely on the wing at the moment. They're red, small and quite pretty. And day-flying. Apologies if it's nothing like the one you saw!

Michael

[millerd]

Cinnabar moth pretending to be a butterfly...

Dave

[holly]

Hi Holly,
If it isn't a Cinnabar moth (which actually looks quite different depending on whether it's wings are open or closed - have a squint at some Google images to see various views) then it certainly has me stumped. The only small butterfly which I can think of which might remotely fit the bill would be a Small Copper, but that is more orange/red and definitely has a pattern on its wings
What makes you say that it was" definitely a butterfly" by the way?.. Shape of wings, shape of antennae? flying during the day etc?... Maybe someone else can help you with a few more clues?

Trev

Hi Trev,
Many thanks for your replies. Sorry it isn't a Cinnabar Moth. Maybe it blew in with the westerly gales we have had. It reminded me of the petals of a red geranium that small, with no other markings just the black line on the outer edge of its wings. It had a tiny black body. It was a vivid red.
regards,
Janet

[ScottD]

Perhaps Transparent Burnet? http://southwestscotland-butterflies.or ... egory1.jpg
These are in Argyll & if caught in wind the wings could easily be erect as per the Cinnabar above.
If so I'm sure that the local recorder Andrew Masterman would love to know exactly where it was seen.

[Nigel P]

Hi Holly,

A real longshot but it's the only one I can find that comes close to your description. You did mention westerlies . . .

http://www.whatsthatbug.com/2009/06/16/lichen-moth-3/

Nigel

[Lee Hurrell]

Thanks for sharing that link Nigel.

I found this lovely little snippet of info on there:

Vladimir Nabokov also stated in a 1970 interview that the Red Admiral is known as the Butterfly of Doom in Russia because large numbers migrated in 1881, the year Tsar Alexander II was assassinated.

Cheers

Lee

[holly]

Perhaps Transparent Burnet? http://southwestscotland-butterflies.or ... egory1.jpg
These are in Argyll & if caught in wind the wings could easily be erect as per the Cinnabar above.
If so I'm sure that the local recorder Andrew Masterman would love to know exactly where it was seen.

Thanks Scott for the link but it wasn't one of those either

[holly]

Hi Holly,

A real longshot but it's the only one I can find that comes close to your description. You did mention westerlies . . .

http://www.whatsthatbug.com/2009/06/16/lichen-moth-3/

Nigel

Thanks Nigel for the link, colour was very similar but is too big and the wings on the butterfly/moth I saw were almost round. Just a mystery

[Nigel P]

Hi Holly,

I've just looked at my copy of WTL and on page 222 it illustrates a form of Cinnabar (f. coneyi) that matches your description.

Nigel

[holly]

Thanks Nigel but what is the WTL?? Can I look on the internet for this?
Many thanks,
Janet

[Pete Eeles]

I'm guessing "Waring - Townsend - Lewington".

Cheers,

- Pete

[Trev Sawyer]

Yes Pete, I'm sure Nigel means the "Field Guide to the Moths of Great Britain and Ireland" by Waring, Townsend and Lewington... The write-up about the moth is on page 222, but the image is actually on page 235. I hadn't thought about a variant of a Cinnabar moth, but the f. coneyi variant is a very good guess. If Holly can find a copy of this book in one of her local bookshops, she would be able to see if that's it. If she can imagine this moth with its wings open, that would seem to be a very close match to her insect... I can't find an image of this particular variant on the web and copyright would presumably prevent us from posting a photo of that page of the book on this site.

Trev

[Pawpawsaurus]

I can't find an image of this particular variant on the web and copyright would presumably prevent us from posting a photo of that page of the book on this site.

Here's an image of a T. jacobaeae ab. coneyi from an eBay sale which ended on March 6th.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 0636055154
I don't know for how long the above link will be valid, so get it while you can.

Hope this helps.

Paul

[Trev Sawyer]

Perfect - Thanks Paul.

Trev