![Image](http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/ptkip/08Aagestis1MontesquieudesAlberes250.jpg)
icarus or agestis
icarus or agestis
Not sure about this one from Med coast area last year. had it down as icarus, then changed to agestis but now not sure.. please help (again)....
![Image](http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/ptkip/08Aagestis1MontesquieudesAlberes250.jpg)
![Image](http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd306/ptkip/08Aagestis1MontesquieudesAlberes250.jpg)
Re: icarus or agestis
What it is not is P. agestis - too many dots in the forewings. Whether there is a third choice I don't know.
Re: icarus or agestis
oops, yes, wasn't looking at the forewing...
- Roger Gibbons
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Re: icarus or agestis
I would say it is icarus, if seen in France I would be almost 100% certain of this. The upper line to the hindwing spot – this is in line with the others in icarus, in agestis it is not. The lower line to the forewing shows a clear (and large) cell spot – this rules out agestis (I think this is what Juha is saying) and also rules out thersites, the species most likely to be confused with icarus in southern France. The other polyommatus species such as escheri and dorylas can also be ruled out.
I would say it is quite typical icarus, probably a female although the dark appearance of the ground colour could just be caused by shade.
I would say it is quite typical icarus, probably a female although the dark appearance of the ground colour could just be caused by shade.
- Padfield
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Re: icarus or agestis
Agreed - though I did also consider female bellargus because of the complete crossing of the hindwing margin by dark brown lines. The cell spot is also very large, more characteristic of Lysandra than Polyommatus. However, I suspect the individual was small and dark (otherwise Paul would not have considered agestis), which often leads to spots looking large and cramped, and the lunules on the forewing are perfect for icarus and wrong for bellargus.
The other species to mention for completeness, if only to eliminate it immediately, is female eros. The cell spot in eros is generally much smaller than this and the whole impression is that it is not this. However, I am only really familiar with male eros for some reason - perhaps because the females tend not to collect at minerals the way males do.
So I would settle for a small, dark icarus, certainly a female in my opinion.
Guy
The other species to mention for completeness, if only to eliminate it immediately, is female eros. The cell spot in eros is generally much smaller than this and the whole impression is that it is not this. However, I am only really familiar with male eros for some reason - perhaps because the females tend not to collect at minerals the way males do.
So I would settle for a small, dark icarus, certainly a female in my opinion.
Guy
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- Roger Gibbons
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Re: icarus or agestis
Is anyone familiar with female eros? I have never seen one, nor a female nicias or glandon, for that matter.
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Re: icarus or agestis
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
![Image](http://www.guypadfield.com/images2002/agriades3.jpg)
I don't think I've ever seen female nicias, though I come across one or two males most years (not all).
Guy
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Re: icarus or agestis
Very interesting.. when forewing cell spot pointed out I immediately wondered why I ever had an issue,
but as Guy pointed out, it was indeed the chequered/ dark fringes that got me! It was small and female, but not the shade of brown in your photo Guy.
Whilst we're at it, what about an odd female Baton Blue..![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
![Embarassed :oops:](./images/smilies/icon_redface.gif)
Whilst we're at it, what about an odd female Baton Blue..
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
- Padfield
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Re: icarus or agestis
A string too far!Paul wrote:Whilst we're at it, what about an odd female Baton Blue..
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
If baton is on your wish list you might get the tail end of the first brood when you come in June. However, it is typically on the wing from April here and I have a feeling you'll be too late.
Guy
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Re: icarus or agestis
Interesting. The picture I have is taken 2006-06-18 (not the erroneous date 2006-08-18) near La Fouly and the male seems to be in pristine condition. Was that a late year or is it just a matter of altitude?padfield wrote:If baton is on your wish list you might get the tail end of the first brood when you come in June. However, it is typically on the wing from April here and I have a feeling you'll be too late.
Edit: Come to think of it, there had been a small avalanche nearby and there were still remains of snow. Maybe that had delayed the emergence of that individual?
- Padfield
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Re: icarus or agestis
In Switzerland, baton is double-brooded at lower altitudes and single-brooded higher up. La Fouly is about 1600m, I think, and I would imagine it is single-brooded there. There is typically still snow on the ground in shady places in May at that altitude and in fact it snowed heavily at the end of May in 2006. So yes - you're right. Paul might see baton if he goes higher when he comes out. I hadn't thought of that - I was thinking of Rhône Valley stuff.
Nice variety of baton you have there, with spots!
Guy
Nice variety of baton you have there, with spots!
Guy
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- Roger Gibbons
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Re: icarus or agestis
Guy, the spotty baton was one of my photos (accreditation underneath) which I think I sent to you last spring in a "Postcard from Var".
- Padfield
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Re: icarus or agestis
Ah - that's where I'd seen it before!! I just spent some time looking through my own photos for something similar because I knew I had seen something like that. Mystery solved. Great butterfly, as I think I mentioned to you when you sent it last time!
Guy
Guy
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Re: icarus or agestis
I would love to see Baton, though not expecting to. Roger, your photos are exquisite. Will I be too early for maculinae other than potentially iolas?
Green underside, Chequered Blue, Chapman's also on dream lists, but reading the books, I'm slightly nervous I will be between spring & summer seasons in early June & miss most things!! Also, Large Tort & Camberwells have eluded me completely so far!!!
Beginning to drool anyway..![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
Green underside, Chequered Blue, Chapman's also on dream lists, but reading the books, I'm slightly nervous I will be between spring & summer seasons in early June & miss most things!! Also, Large Tort & Camberwells have eluded me completely so far!!!
Beginning to drool anyway..
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
- Roger Gibbons
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Re: icarus or agestis
Paul, you say you're heading toward the Med in early June, but I don't see where you say you're going to be. Butterflies are more or less continuous from early April to the end of June in the French Med area, with different species coming and going. It's not like the UK which sometimes seems to me to have a "dead patch" in June between the early and summer species. It would not be unreasonable to expect to see 25 species in any given location in June in Var, and I see 100 species in Var before the end of June. If you're in SE France then, I could show you a place or two.
- Padfield
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Re: icarus or agestis
Maculinea: arion should be on the wing in the Rhône Valley when you come, Paul - it flies up at Gryon by mid-June. Nausithous, teleius and rebeli are all July butterflies at my sites. Iolas is pretty much a cert - at least if you're prepared to invest in a 6-pack of cheap beer and wait. In recent years there has been no waiting - you just turn up and they appear. You will be between broods for some things but there are also things you need to come at that time for - like helle, for example. You can't have everything at once!
I'm looking forward to it already!!
Guy
I'm looking forward to it already!!
Guy
Guy's Butterflies: https://www.guypadfield.com
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Re: icarus or agestis
Roger... sorry, I'm in Haute Savoie in june.. 2-11th in fact.. I suppose that's many miles from you.. but the last time I was there, Guy knows, I ended up driving as far as Montellimar to find the weather!!!
- Maybe another year?? ![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Guy... Can't wait... I forgot about helle, another one I would dream of seeing... in fact I did wonder if I would see it in the Pyrenees with the Bog frits, but no joy. I'm really not greedy, but you know how it is... you begin to look through the books....![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Guy... Can't wait... I forgot about helle, another one I would dream of seeing... in fact I did wonder if I would see it in the Pyrenees with the Bog frits, but no joy. I'm really not greedy, but you know how it is... you begin to look through the books....
![Rolling Eyes :roll:](./images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif)