icarus or agestis

[Paul]

Not sure about this one from Med coast area last year. had it down as icarus, then changed to agestis but now not sure.. please help (again)....

[JKT]

What it is not is P. agestis - too many dots in the forewings. Whether there is a third choice I don't know.

[Paul]

oops, yes, wasn't looking at the forewing...

[Roger Gibbons]

I would say it is icarus, if seen in France I would be almost 100% certain of this. The upper line to the hindwing spot – this is in line with the others in icarus, in agestis it is not. The lower line to the forewing shows a clear (and large) cell spot – this rules out agestis (I think this is what Juha is saying) and also rules out thersites, the species most likely to be confused with icarus in southern France. The other polyommatus species such as escheri and dorylas can also be ruled out.

I would say it is quite typical icarus, probably a female although the dark appearance of the ground colour could just be caused by shade.

08Aagestis1MontesquieudesAlberes250.jpg (109.69 KiB) Viewed 712 times

[Padfield]

Agreed - though I did also consider female bellargus because of the complete crossing of the hindwing margin by dark brown lines. The cell spot is also very large, more characteristic of Lysandra than Polyommatus. However, I suspect the individual was small and dark (otherwise Paul would not have considered agestis), which often leads to spots looking large and cramped, and the lunules on the forewing are perfect for icarus and wrong for bellargus.

The other species to mention for completeness, if only to eliminate it immediately, is female eros. The cell spot in eros is generally much smaller than this and the whole impression is that it is not this. However, I am only really familiar with male eros for some reason - perhaps because the females tend not to collect at minerals the way males do.

So I would settle for a small, dark icarus, certainly a female in my opinion.

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

Is anyone familiar with female eros? I have never seen one, nor a female nicias or glandon, for that matter.

[Padfield]

You have to get off the track to the often rather isolated patches where these species actually breed to see the females, in my experience. I have come across female glandon on several occasions, though never got good photos. The best is this old video frame from the Val, which shows an insect I tried for a long time to string into pyrenaicus, but failed, mainly because the male at the same site was obviously glandon:



I don't think I've ever seen female nicias, though I come across one or two males most years (not all).

Guy

[Paul]

Very interesting.. when forewing cell spot pointed out I immediately wondered why I ever had an issue, but as Guy pointed out, it was indeed the chequered/ dark fringes that got me! It was small and female, but not the shade of brown in your photo Guy.
Whilst we're at it, what about an odd female Baton Blue..

[Padfield]

Whilst we're at it, what about an odd female Baton Blue..

A string too far!

If baton is on your wish list you might get the tail end of the first brood when you come in June. However, it is typically on the wing from April here and I have a feeling you'll be too late.

Guy

[JKT]

If baton is on your wish list you might get the tail end of the first brood when you come in June. However, it is typically on the wing from April here and I have a feeling you'll be too late.

Interesting. The picture I have is taken 2006-06-18 (not the erroneous date 2006-08-18) near La Fouly and the male seems to be in pristine condition. Was that a late year or is it just a matter of altitude?

Edit: Come to think of it, there had been a small avalanche nearby and there were still remains of snow. Maybe that had delayed the emergence of that individual?

[Padfield]

In Switzerland, baton is double-brooded at lower altitudes and single-brooded higher up. La Fouly is about 1600m, I think, and I would imagine it is single-brooded there. There is typically still snow on the ground in shady places in May at that altitude and in fact it snowed heavily at the end of May in 2006. So yes - you're right. Paul might see baton if he goes higher when he comes out. I hadn't thought of that - I was thinking of Rhône Valley stuff.

Nice variety of baton you have there, with spots!

Guy

[Roger Gibbons]

Guy, the spotty baton was one of my photos (accreditation underneath) which I think I sent to you last spring in a "Postcard from Var".

[Padfield]

Ah - that's where I'd seen it before!! I just spent some time looking through my own photos for something similar because I knew I had seen something like that. Mystery solved. Great butterfly, as I think I mentioned to you when you sent it last time!

Guy

[Paul]

I would love to see Baton, though not expecting to. Roger, your photos are exquisite. Will I be too early for maculinae other than potentially iolas?
Green underside, Chequered Blue, Chapman's also on dream lists, but reading the books, I'm slightly nervous I will be between spring & summer seasons in early June & miss most things!! Also, Large Tort & Camberwells have eluded me completely so far!!!
Beginning to drool anyway..

[Roger Gibbons]

Paul, you say you're heading toward the Med in early June, but I don't see where you say you're going to be. Butterflies are more or less continuous from early April to the end of June in the French Med area, with different species coming and going. It's not like the UK which sometimes seems to me to have a "dead patch" in June between the early and summer species. It would not be unreasonable to expect to see 25 species in any given location in June in Var, and I see 100 species in Var before the end of June. If you're in SE France then, I could show you a place or two.

[Padfield]

Maculinea: arion should be on the wing in the Rhône Valley when you come, Paul - it flies up at Gryon by mid-June. Nausithous, teleius and rebeli are all July butterflies at my sites. Iolas is pretty much a cert - at least if you're prepared to invest in a 6-pack of cheap beer and wait. In recent years there has been no waiting - you just turn up and they appear. You will be between broods for some things but there are also things you need to come at that time for - like helle, for example. You can't have everything at once!

I'm looking forward to it already!!

Guy

[Paul]

Roger... sorry, I'm in Haute Savoie in june.. 2-11th in fact.. I suppose that's many miles from you.. but the last time I was there, Guy knows, I ended up driving as far as Montellimar to find the weather!!! - Maybe another year??

Guy... Can't wait... I forgot about helle, another one I would dream of seeing... in fact I did wonder if I would see it in the Pyrenees with the Bog frits, but no joy. I'm really not greedy, but you know how it is... you begin to look through the books....