"Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

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Bradders
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"Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Bradders »

Ok first of all I'm not sure if this is the right section to post this in, it didn't seem to fit anywhere else. So apologies in advance if this is wrong.

About a week and a half ago me and my brother were dismantling an old chicken-wire fence in the garden and found a chrysalis (attached to the fence) which we've identifed since as a "Comma". We were getting rid of the fence so I cut the section of the wire it was stuck to off and then we hooked it onto a nearby plant on our deck. After a couple of days it hadn't changed so we thought that maybe it wasnt warm enough there and moved the plant with the chrysalis into the conservatory hoping that the warmth would wake it up.

I read that parisites can get them and that they would take on dark/blackish uneven markings. I would say that this one was dark brown, but the markings are still symmetrical and its still got its shiny bits. I would post a pic but my camera is not up to the job.

I read on this site that the pupa stage of the Comma ends in early September....so is this guy dead or what? :( Surely if he hatches now its going to be too cold for him? :?

Anyway I thought I'd ask the experts here so any info or advice you could give would be appreciated, thanks. :)
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Pete Eeles
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Pete Eeles »

Hi Bradders,

The Comma hibernates as the adult butterfly - so your pupa may well be OK. If the pupa had just formed, then it would take a couple of weeks (at least) before emergence.

The pupa itself will often move when touched (gently!) and should certainly be somewhat flexible and not completely rigid (the abdominal segments should flex slightly).

Cheers,

- Pete
Life Cycles of British & Irish Butterflies: http://www.butterflylifecycles.com
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Bradders
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Bradders »

Thanks Pete.

Its still wobbles a bit, the tail like bit that attaches onto the wire does seem to bend a little, but the rest of it seems stiff. I didn't think butterflies would still be around this late in September- shows what I know! lol

Will he be alright in the conservatory until then or would it be too warm? Also if/when it hatches what plants should it be released onto?
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Pete Eeles
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Pete Eeles »

Hi,

Yes - it will be alright in the conservatory - just make sure the pupa isn't in direct sunlight since it can overheat. Also - if the conservatory gets very warm, it might be best to place the pupa outside.

When the butterfly emerges, and after its wings have dried (the butterfly flying around is a good clue!), then just release it on a sunny day and it will make its own way in life!

Cheers,

- Pete
Life Cycles of British & Irish Butterflies: http://www.butterflylifecycles.com
British & Irish Butterflies Rarities: http://www.butterflyrarities.com
Bradders
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Bradders »

Great stuff, heres hoping he makes it. Thanks for the advice :)
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Cotswold Cockney »

Most healthy Nymphalidae butterfly chrysalids like the suspended Comma you've found usually become active wrigglers when touched, often shaking the twigs and leaves nearby in the process.. The movement is unmistakeable.

One way to test if a butterfly or moth pupa or chrysalis is still alive is to test its temperature in a simple way. Place it gently against your face and if it feels cool or even cold, that is a sign of a healthy living specimen. A dead chrysalis can still be flexible around it's abdominal segments but if it feels warm with the simple temperature test, almost certainly it is dead.

Another butterfly which frequently breeds in gardens is the Speckled wood. Several times I've found their chrysalids suspended on fences or other parts of the garden in much the same way as your Comma. Like it's very distinctive larva, the Comma chrysalis is also very distinctive.

The Comma was the first butterfly caterpillar I ever found as a small child although I had no idea what it was at the time. Back in 1945 when I was three, in our East London garden, there was a massive old Elm Tree. Those houses were built in what some decades previously were farmland and that huge Elm was part of a hedgerow which formed the bottom boundary of the gardens. There were numerous 'sucker' like shoots around that elm and it was on one of those that I spotted that distinctively coloured larva. I clearly remember that the commonest moth there was the Small Magpie.... they were numerous ~ again I had no idea what they were at the time.

Although I was only three when WWII ended, I still have numerous vivid memories of the time. Not least that the weather was always fine and sunny and I spent much time in that garden. There's another vivid memory of that faraway time I am frequently reminded of every time I see a certain species of Bumble bee in my garden now. Back then as a very small boy, I saw one of these bees busy doing its stuff on the flowers in the garden and as nobody had ever warned me about bees and wasps, decided to pick it up by one wing with my finger a thump. Of course I was immediately stung and it was a far more painful experience for me then than any bee or wasp sting I've had since.... that first sting was exceedingly painful and I've had a healthy respect for these creatures ever since ...:D
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Bradders
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Bradders »

I'll give the temperature test a try, I've been a bit reluctant to touch it because it looks so alien - like it might bite! This is the first chrysalis I've ever found which is weird given that our garden usually has tons of butterflies. I didn't know what it was at first, the gold/silver spots were really surprising. I just hope he hurries up and hatches if he is alive otherwise hes gonna find things a bit frosty lol

I was going to ask, at what point do you think he'll definitely dead if he hasn't hatched? Like if he still hasn't emerged by the end of October would that be it? I'd like to keep hold of the chrysalis and wouldn't want it to suddenly hatch in a drawer or something lol
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Paul
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Paul »

My Comma emerged only 3 or so days ago, among those now nectaring like mad on the last remaining flowers before they hibernate - see blog entry if interested
Bradders
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead? *update*

Post by Bradders »

Thanks for the replies, they were some brilliant pictures there Paul. My own Comma finally hatched today, I came in this morning at about 10 and took a look at the chrysalis, it looked really dark and the shiny bits had stopped being shiny so I figured he was dead :( Anyway at about 12 I just happened to look at him again and there he was sitting upside down on the twig! :D

The only problem is he'd still there now, hes not dead because his legs and his "tounge" move sometimes. How long does it normally take for their wings to dry out? It was pretty cold and windy today so I dont know if he would have wanted to fly off If he could. I'm just worried that he's left things a bit late, they dont live that long do they? :?
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Pete Eeles »

Hi Bradders,

The wings are normally pumped up in about 10 minues in a Comma, with another couple of hours to properly dry out, ready for the maiden flight.

Commas overwinter as adults, so he should be just fine. I suggest that you let him go on the next sunny day, if he's not already outside. He'll find his own home for the winter :)

Cheers,

- Pete
Life Cycles of British & Irish Butterflies: http://www.butterflylifecycles.com
British & Irish Butterflies Rarities: http://www.butterflyrarities.com
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Paul
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by Paul »

The one I was referring to in my garden stayed in the same spot next to the empty case for about 36hrs!!! Possibly something to do with time of year, it will nectar on the warm days, then hibernate & re-activate in Spring next year, all being well.
thepostieles
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Re: "Comma" chrysalis...is it dead?

Post by thepostieles »

i remember finding a comma pupae few years back.took it home and thought id see it after it emerged, but when i came home the damn thing had flown as top window open aaagh :o
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