www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

Gruditch wrote:Mike Young said "I disagree with this statement, why stick to rules/restrictions of a bygone system, when with sensible use, we have so much more we can do with digital," this was in the "Photoshop or not Photoshop" debate. And as Mike is running the comps now, I think you should butt out Pete. I say let them do as they want, it adds variety. On the other hand Gwen-heffer could win with that pic, as a couple of people have said how much they like it, so disqualify them Pete. No lets keep just the one comp, Photography is an Art, and if someone wishes to express themself using after image manipulation, then that's fine by me this is suposed to be a bit of fun after all, how can you say you can sharpen, but not soften a image, no lets not get picky on rules and stuff, keep it fun, and vote Gruditch.

Gruditch

Well - that would certainly keep things simple. Anyway - I'm going to vote for this, your latest entry, based purely on the fact that you've set the record for the most number of smilies in a post. Although you missed out on maximising the count with judicious use of Mr. Green

So unless anyone complains - we'll stick with things as they are.

Cheers,

- Pete

Looks like I opened a can of worms with my comments on Simon c's photo, some good comments from members, and I think a separate section would be best, keep the competition entries the same, so our film users can still take part, I myself have some good ideas for making the perfect photo, imagine not having the constraints of low depth of field and out of focus backgrounds. I would start with the perfect background, adding a few flowers or plants, then putting the subject in the perfect position, yes I know its cheating, but would be an interesting challange, for the computer and for me!

BRIAN wrote:Looks like I opened a can of worms with my comments on Simon c's photo, some good comments from members, and I think a separate section would be best, keep the competition entries the same, so our film users can still take part, I myself have some good ideas for making the perfect photo, imagine not having the constraints of low depth of field and out of focus backgrounds. I would start with the perfect background, adding a few flowers or plants, then putting the subject in the perfect position, yes I know its cheating, but would be an interesting challange, for the computer and for me!

I'd love to see it Bryan,but I honestly think it's impossible to do and make it look natural.

Martin.

Martin wrote:
I'd love to see it Bryan,but I honestly think it's impossible to do and make it look natural.

Martin.

That would be quite an achievement - precisely what failed so miserably in Tomlinson & Still's Wild Guide to British Butterflies! I don't care what anyone says; those montages are appalling...

Felix.

Surely the challenge for us all is to take better "photos" or digital images, using a camera. I know that I can (and possibly should seeing the standard here) take a Photoshop course with my camera club, to produce better images from the originals. And whilst it is true that a good picture is needed to make it better by manipulation, it can make the difference between a "winning" entry or not! I see the challenge now for my photography to get into a position where the background is clear/can be blurred by judicious f-stop choice, there are no twigs/grass/leaves or shadows in the way and work on composition, lighting angle,shutter speed etc, etc so as not to need the "manipulation" and post-processing in Photoshop or similar packages. Tall enough order to keep trying for a lifetime, I would guess?
As you can imagine, even the best - and all you guys out there are the best - struggle to do this on a consistent basis. So, whilst I greatly admire the skill of those who can "do a number" to make an attractive picture, I tend to err on the side of Peter. I believe he is correct to make a distinction between wildlife photography ,in the raw (no pun intended!), and a "picture" that one might enter for a photographic competition, where the judge will pick-up the distracting grass or coloured background and suggest that it should have been changed to "improve the overall image". It's use also brings a degree of scepticism to genuine photographs which others consider too "perfect"; the photographer gets no credit for being or planning to be at the right place and time for that particular shot! Photoshop is a Pandora's box!
And before we all get too animated, let us not forget, people used to do these tricks in the darkroom (with much more time and trouble), with, no doubt, similar debates about photography as a discipline or art!
Plus ca change...

BRIAN wrote:Looks like I opened a can of worms with my comments on Simon c's photo

What "photo" is that?

I like Simon's entry - but a photo it is not

Cheers,

- Pete

For me, photography is a branch of art, and art is how we express a situation/image in a media removed from the original situation and image. I agree with Martin's comment... generally the more we manipulate an image, the worse it becomes. However, in the hands of a true artist, the overall image can improve... so we should keep these images in the competition and allow the voters to decide what compromises photography and what doesn't. For what it's worth, I try and keep all of my manipulation in camera and restrain from making edits post capture.

While we're discussing 'rules' for the competitions, Gary raises another point, that people comment on photographs in the thread. For me this is much more of a taboo than editing a photo. Imagine being asked to judge the BBC wildlife photography competition to find that some images have stamped on them reviews from third parties and others don't. Would this not sway or influence your decision?? I've not done terribly in these comps, and I know there is nothing material at stake, but I cringe when I see the "Great photo X", and "thats a winner" comments!! If you want to congratulate a contributor, then I think you should do it using PMs. Does anybody else have a view on this, or am I just being miserable??

Regards

Chris

Chris wrote:I cringe when I see the "Great photo X", and "thats a winner" comments!! If you want to congratulate a contributor, then I think you should do it using PMs. Does anybody else have a view on this, or am I just being miserable??

I completely agree Chris. Even though such comments can work both in favour, and against, the point is that the voting should be "neutral" and not influenced in any way. Any comments should be made after voting has closed, in my opinion (too!). And I have to apologise to Simon for saying "I like Simon's entry - but a photo it is not". Perhaps I should have brought up the subject of image manipulation in a separate thread.

Cheers,

- Pete

I personally have no problem with the posts between comp enters, and if someone praised up one of your images, then I'm sure wouldn't either Chris. Pete's right comments can work for or against you, and I think they helped keep the sense of community we had here, now it will all be a bit sterile and serious with the sense of fun missing.

Gruditch

Seeing as it was my entry which started this all off, most of you will be pleased to know that I have withdrawn it, and have replaced it with exactly the same, but a bog standard crop, no sharpening or lighting etc...

All I did was soften the background

Gwenhwyfar wrote:... most of you will be pleased to know that I have withdrawn it ...

Hi Lisa - I don't think that's true at all and would suggest that you put the original image back - since any change to the criteria wouldn't be put into effect until the next competition anyway. Oh, how I wish I'd started a separate thread As one of the main contributors to the website through your postings, images, contributions to the stock library, and blog ... you deserve to do what you like

If anything, I think a couple of images (and yours wasn't the one that started the discussion!) has required me, as "webmaster", to ensure that the competition is as open and fair as possible. My genuine concern is that we need to maintain a "level playing field" for those that are unable to "post-process" their images to the same level as you (for whatever reason). I'm not trying to penalise anyone - quite the opposite - I just want to encourage as much participation as possible since, at the end of the day, this website is all about fostering an interest that will, maybe, just make a difference in some way.

As Gary says - we also need to ensure that we maintain the "fun" element, and maybe this is all getting a bit too serious. So I think Mike's poll suggesting we have 2 competitions per month with a) help us separate the different types of entry and b) help us focus on both a photo entry per month, and also help us hone our post-processing skills i.e. 2 entries per month. I'd be up for that

Cheers,

- Pete

Thanks Pete, but I think I will just leave my entry as it is.

As one of the main contributors to the website through your postings, images, contributions to the stock library, and blog ... you deserve to do what you like

You do know of course, I will make you regret this comment some day!

To be honest - I think your original image is pretty darn good anyways!

Non, je ne regrette rien

Cheers,

- Pete