Map sighting near Swanage

[dave brown]

Very good and considered responses by Adrian and Liz, said with feeling and some anger. I don't think there is much more to say on the subject of these Maps except I believe, like many other members, that I have worked out the site location, (I was probably a lot slower than potential collectors), so its probably best that they have not been seen so far today (unless they have already been there).

[David M]

I'm getting the feeling that many on here believe this to be a spurious release rather than a natural colonisation.

I'm afraid I can't get as excited about this as I did for the recent bona fide appearances of Yellow-Legged Tortoiseshell and Long Tailed Blue.

There's something not quite right about this.

[Pauline]

I would love to know the provenance of these butterflies but I don't suppose we ever will. Reading various reports it does seem as though the number of individuals on the site built over several days and indeed when I visited a couple looked remarkably fresh and others fairly worn. Not sure that helps one way or another but perhaps points to a Spring release?

[millerd]

Butterflies released (or arriving naturally!) in Spring would have been the orange form. The ones being seen now could be their descendants. That would explain the variability of condition as if they would have likely emerged at varying times. One gravid female appearing here (by whatever means) in the spring might have been all that was required. The larvae would likely have gone unnoticed. Just an idea...

Dave

[Paul Harfield]

I have long since been of the believe that collectors know more about species and sites than us poor innocent recorders. Keeping site locations secret just means that there are less people looking and the collectors can get in un-unnoticed. the problem though is when the site is private and the owners ask for the embargo.
Liz

And of course every obstacle you put in the way of a collector will make him more determined. Half the fun of collecting is in the chase

[Pete Eeles]

So - getting back on topic and having re-read this entire thread - there is nothing to say that these butterflies aren't the progeny of a genuine immigrant, is there? As Neil said on page 1

It's a shame it's just the one group of butterflies, otherwise I'm sure we'd be having a very different discussion. The Scarce / Yellow-legged Tortoiseshell sightings were initially dismissed as a release until they started turning up here and there!

Cheers,

- Pete

[jasonbirder]

Not sure of the veracity of this...but I've heard tell from another forum that this may be one of a number of micro-colonies along the South Coast...
Location's normally kept a tightly controlled secret because there has been at least one individual who wiped one of the colonies out deliberately as they were a "deliberate introduction"
As with rare birds...rumour and counter rumour often fly! If you pardon the pun...
Not sure how that impacts on the likelihood of it being a genuine migrant occurance rather than a release...
Though having met and spoken to the infamous "Bolsover Butterfly Man" of Carr Vale Large Copper fame...my eyes have certainly been opened to the activities of breeders and collectors LOL!

[Jack Harrison]

My mistake - replied on wrong thread. Now be on Sensor Sizes.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7864&p=89739#p89739

Jack

[nomad]

I must say that this has been a most interesting thread. It does seem it is illegal under the Wildlife and Countryside Act of 1981 to introduce any non-native species into the U.K and this includes butterflies. Therefore technically anyone trying to start a colony of Map butterflies would be breaking the law. I am not sure how those that release different butterflies at weddings and other events by- pass this law. As far as I know, a collector would not be able to catch a Map butterfly on any private land, this means without the express permission of the owner and certainly not on any National Trust areas or in Nature reserves. I get a great deal of enjoyment out of photographing British butterflies, so I would be very pleased if the Map butterfly established itself here and do not really care if they arrived as a immigrant or were introduced by persons unknown. This is such a interesting and harmless species and this butterfly has an amazing seasonal variation. We have so few butterflies that if the Map butterfly manages to colonize us, it should be welcomed with open arms. Peter.

[Pauline]

I don't think collectors abide by the law Peter. As far as I remember Kingsdown Leas is National Trust land but I know that collectors were catching LTB's there. I know that because someone I know challenged a guy with a net - amazingly not only did he admit it but he stated that he was trying to get as many as his mate had the evening before!!!

[Gruditch]

I get a great deal of enjoyment out of photographing British butterflies, so I would be very pleased if the Map butterfly established itself here and do not really care if they arrived as a immigrant or were introduced by persons unknown.

Yeah, let's all just dump stuff into the wild, so we can photograph it

Gruditch

[nomad]

I get a great deal of enjoyment out of photographing British butterflies, so I would be very pleased if the Map butterfly established itself here and do not really care if they arrived as a immigrant or were introduced by persons unknown.

Yeah, let's all just dump stuff into the wild, so we can photograph it

Gruditch

I was referring to the joy of having a new butterfly, we would have had this already, if some fool did not exterminate it years ago in the Wye Valley. If its here to stay, I would gladly photograph it. It seems many people would like to now, however, I am more interested in finding other native species at the moment.
Regards Peter.










ow.

[Matsukaze]

So - getting back on topic and having re-read this entire thread - there is nothing to say that these butterflies aren't the progeny of a genuine immigrant, is there? As Neil said on page 1

It's a shame it's just the one group of butterflies, otherwise I'm sure we'd be having a very different discussion. The Scarce / Yellow-legged Tortoiseshell sightings were initially dismissed as a release until they started turning up here and there!

Cheers,

- Pete

It's the right part of the country for a natural immigrant (I understand a few moth species have become new residents in south Dorset over the past few years), and the species does have some form for dispersing over open water, colonising southern Sweden across the Kattegat and turning up on Jersey a few times in the past few years.

If it's an unauthorised introduction, it's most likely someone local (in which case the truth will out at some point), although I suppose there is the possibility that someone wants to hoax a natural colonisation for obscure reasons of their own.

[John W]

Yeah, let's all just dump stuff into the wild, so we can photograph it

There is no such thing as "the wild" in Britain. The habitat has been profoundly influenced by the activities of man for thousands of years. There is no way of telling what the list of native species would have been if man had not existed. In that context it doesn't really make sense to talk about "artificial" introductions. The entire ecology of Britain is to some degree artificial.

John

[jasonbirder]

With Map expanding on the near continent and making the jump to the channel islands etc...it's certainly a potential colonist...

Wouldn't any illegal introductions jeopardize that? So we should be MORE careful than with some random exotic!

[nomad]

If the Map butterflies are a introduction, I believe you might need far more butterflies to start a viable colony, however hopefully these are true immigrants and more will arrive in later years. We must remember that the Large Blues we introduced were of Swedish stock, we had our own subspecies. The Large Coppers we introduced here for many years were the subspecies batavus and not dispar. O.K, both of the latter are very close to our extinct British subspecies, but they are and always will be continental butterflies. I cannot see, however it arrived here the Map butterfly would be a problem, it cannot be confused with any other British butterfly. What seems frighten recorders is that this butterfly is a continental species that has never occurred here as a native species and must be seen to have flown across the channel.
Regards Peter.

[Gruditch]

There is no such thing as "the wild" in Britain. The habitat has been profoundly influenced by the activities of man for thousands of years. There is no way of telling what the list of native species would have been if man had not existed. In that context it doesn't really make sense to talk about "artificial" introductions. The entire ecology of Britain is to some degree artificial.

So it would be ok, if I were to ship in a cougar, and release it into the countryside, just so I can twitch, and photograph it. Plus get that sad ego trip, as people talk about its probable origins, on forums like this.


Regards Gruditch

[Mark Senior]

I must confess that I still do not understand the distinction made by some between

1) Introduced species ( bad )that does not compete with native species already here and adds something to our fauna/flora
2) Natural immigrant ( good ) that arrives under its own steam and harms one or more species of fauna/flora already here .

[dave brown]

I would dearly like these to be of wild origin but I have a continuing concern. So far none have turned up any where else, as far as we know. They are at a well watched site, but not really known for its migration status, admittedly on the right coast. Had someone released them with the intention of them being found quickly then the site chosen is probably one of the best. Assumed to be the result of a 1st generation, which I understand is even more sedimentary. Rumours abound that someone in the area may be writing a book on butterflies and has released one or two species to photograph fresh individuals. That may or may not be true, and might not even involve the Map. However, it adds fuel to the release theory. As Matsukaze says, it would probably be someone local and people will eventually find out. In the meantime I am sure the locals are researching into the release potential.
Having said all that it is a lovelly butterfly and would be a very welcome addition to our countryside if of wild origin.

[MikeOxon]

I recall that there was a series of Map releases in an Oxfordshire wood in the early 1990s. Both 1st and 2nd brood butterflies were seen in a few successive years, and caused some local excitement, before it was found to be the result of illegal releases.

One of the (many) problems with this sort of release is that it makes it impossible to track the actual response of species to climatic changes. We do not understand the precise requirements of most species so that, for example, despite successive attempts at re-introduction, Glanville Frits seem to have failed again at Sand Point, Large Coppers at Wicken Fen, and so on. Even Large Blues seem to be having a tricky time at Collard Hill. I feel it is important that we are able to identify when new species arrive naturally as, only in this way, can we hope to understand their site requirements.

Mike