Turkish Butterflies

[Ray Baker]

Hi,

Not sure if you'll be able to help (being a group for UK butterflies...) but puzzled by some sightings from a holiday in SW Turkey last week....

The first one I can only make a Small Copper, which is a bit of a surprise, as in the field it looked much bigger than our UK variety. I know that sometimes 'foreign' butterflies can be much bigger than our UK versions, so maybe that's all that it is, but just wanted to make sure.

Second is a bit of a puzzle, as I can't find anything in my field guide that matches... I think it's another copper of some description.... but maybe not!

Third one looks to me quite a bit like a Knapweed Fritillary, but range doesn't appear to stretch quite as far east as Turkey, so may well be wrong on that one!

Thanks in advance for any help.


All the best.... Ray

[Mikhail]

I agree the first is Small Copper, and the other copper appears to be Lycaena asabinus. I'll leave the fritillary to someone else!

M.

[nik_s]

Hi Ray,

The fritillary is either Knapweed (Melitaea phoebe) or Eastern Knapweed (Melitaea ornata). If you have a shot of the underside, it will be easy to say.

Cheers,

N.

[Padfield]

Nothing to add to the first two - definitely small copper and Lycaena asabinus, as Mikhail says (without any need of corroboration by me ). But I'm intrigued by Nik's assertion phoebe (which does fly throughout Turkey, Ray) and ornata are easy to separate by the underside and would be interested if he would elaborate. According to Lafranchis, the black crescent marks inside the white submarginal lunules of ornata are small and discrete while in phoebe they are conjoined. That holds for almost all the individuals of both species figured in Tshikolovets. Is that the distinction you meant, Nik?

Guy

[Mikhail]

See: http://babochki-kavkaza.ru/index.php/ny ... nata-.html for a very useful pictorial summary of the differences between phoebe and ornata. Scroll down to just before the section on biology (early stages etc) and click on the box on the right.

M

[Padfield]

Thanks Misha. I'm not sure how useful the antennal criteria are in the field, but if the marginal markings are consistently that different the species should be much easier than I had previously thought.

Guy

[Ray Baker]

Thanks Guys,

Re: the second one - Lycaena asabinus - feel a little bit better now, inasmuch as this species doesn't appear in either of my field guides! (Collins or LaFranchis)... I've found it on the internet, and it appears to be Anatolian Fiery Copper... how does that relate to l. thetis, which in my books is Fiery Copper?

Sorry, not able to help with an underside shot of the fritillary....It was seen on 29th May near Dalyan in SW Turkey, if that's any help! ...again m. ornata doesn't appear in either of my field guides!

I can see that exotic butterflies is a bit of a minefield!!


Rgds.... Ray

[Padfield]

L. thetis and L. asabinus are both in the same group (the thersamon group), which has one further species in that region, ochimus. There is a breakdown of the Lycaena groups here: http://tolweb.org/Lycaena/111507. That site doesn't always represent the latest taxonomy but it's broadly right.

Guy

[Ray Baker]

Thanks Guy,

Must say that I find this all a bit disheartening.... I am really a birdwatcher who has a very much peripheral interest in butterflies - if I see something when out and about, then I will try to get a photograph and attempt to identify it at a later time, but rather dispiriting to find that 2 out of the 3 species that I found don't appear in either of my supposedly comprehensive field guides.... Is this because the taxonomy is so fluid and changeable that new species are being discovered and split all of the time, thus rendering even recent field guides out of date more-or-less straight away, or is it that Turkey is pushing the boundaries a bit for my 'European' books, which maybe are better for more western species?

The internet links that have been pointed out are useful, but as very much a part-time butterfly man, I would never know where to look to find such information...

In view of the above, maybe I'd best double-check one that I thought I knew - I had it pegged as a Dark-green Fritillary!

Thanks for all the help..... Ray

[FISHiEE]

I'd call that as a cardinal myself. The red on the underside in the second shot is the giveaway. Definitely not dark green fritillary which looks very different.

[Ray Baker]

Thank you! You're right - it's nothing like a Dark Green Fritillary... a fact that hopefully I would have noticed myself when I eventually got around to looking at the photos properly .

Pleased that it turned out to be a Cardinal though - not a species that I have seen before - you can only just see the pinkish underside of the forewing poking out. The pic that just shows the hindwing looks more like a Brimstone!!


All the best.... Ray

[Padfield]

Hi Ray. FISHiEE is quite right - that's a cardinal.

The field guides you have are good - it's just that Turkey's out of their range. If you visit Turkey regularly, you'll find the species there listed and to a limited extent illustrated in this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Butterflies-Eur ... 01862383&s

For more complete coverage there is:

http://www.nhbs.com/butterflies_of_euro ... 83061.html

Guy

[Mark Tutton]

Hi Ray
This book is also available which I bought when visiting Turkey last year. Not especially good for id but does give a good guide to the species found in Turkey.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/A-Field-Guide-B ... +of+turkey
I found it useful to give an idea of the non European species that might be in the area I was visiting which I could then check out out a more comprehensive guide.
Kind regards
Mark

[Ray Baker]

Thanks Guys,

I'll have a look for some of those guides - we go to Turkey quite a bit, and they would clearly be a great help....


All the best.... Ray

[FISHiEE]

Also, not sure if this is any good:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/9756690 ... ot_redir=1

[FISHiEE]

Been trying to persuade the other half to go to turkey for a long time without success. There us the possibility of a family wedding next July there but suspect July is a pretty bad time for butterflies and most other wildlife then as everything must be tinder dry then?

[Mark Tutton]

Hi all
The guide that fishee sent the link to is the one I have - it is fairly small so convenient to pack into the luggage but with the note of caution that it is not brilliant as a field guide - Butterflies of Europe and Mediterranean area by Tshikolovets is much better but I haven't saved the £80 yet
I went to Turkey last year in July and it was very hot, 40c some days, so butterflies were fairly scarce on the coast where I was located, LTB, scarce swallowtail, two tailed pasha and Pygmy skipper were the highlights. Unfortunately I was unable to get to more suitable habitat or higher altitudes as there are mountain ranges that extend to an altitude in excess of 10,000ft not far from the coast so cooler habitats are within range even at this time of year.
I am returning again in July this year (family pressure ) so I will let you know how I get on
Interestingly I also found this paper about the taxonomy distribution and ecology of Melitaea ornata which contains information regarding the differences between M.phoebe and M.ornata which may be of interest.
http://dea.lib.unideb.hu/dea/bitstream/ ... P_diss.pdf
Kind Regards
Mark

[nik_s]

Guy: The differences between phoebe and ornata are pretty consistent. I have seen hundreds of specimens during the last five years, and identification in the field (or by photographs) has never been a problem. Mikhail's link, which is taken from a fairly interesting article by Toth and Varga - Zoologischer Anzeiger 250 (2011) 258–268, summarizes the differences pretty well - the hindwing marginal lunules are the easiest character to observe in the field. Here's a little attachment from me as well:

For those going to Turkey, Ahmet Baytas's field guide is a nice book (links given in previous posts): good photos (lots of them) and nice coverage, unfortunately no maps, but nice size and weight for a backpack.

Cheers,

N.

[Lee Hurrell]

I visited Kalkan in September when it was still 30 degrees and saw a fair bit. I was also limited to local areas on foot. Report starts about halfway down:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3984&start=600

Best wishes,

Lee