Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please

[Paul Harfield]

Hi
Today I found an area where there were at least 10 Clouded Yellows flying Four of these were pale in colour and all females. I am assuming that they are helice, but one in particular drew my attention. It was white on the upperside, was also very small about a third smaller than the others. The dark markings also seemed much heavier than the others. I have tried to take some backlit photos as per 'Padfield', not easy with my basic camera, but hopefully they are clear enough. I would appreciate comments/confirmation that they are helice
Many thanks

This was the first one I found. It was the same size as all the other 'normal' Clouded Yellows flying. It had very pale upperwings and seemed to have a particularly greenish underside.

This one was particularly small and pretty much white on the upperside and seemed to have heavier dark markings.

This is the same butterfly from the opposite side showing some extra dark markings, possibly a deformity?

The same butterfly again this time not backlit

[David M]

At the very least this looks like another helice.

Hopefully Guy or Roger will advise on the Pale Clouded Yellow possibilities.

[grumpy]

I'd go with Helice, but I'm sure there are much more experienced folks on here than me !!

[Pete Eeles]

Definitely all helice, and nice shots too

Cheers,

- Pete

[Padfield]

I'd agree 100% with helice for both individuals. The backlit shots are conclusive for the second individual - so well done for getting those! The first individual is a little less obviously helice but is very obviously not pale clouded or Berger's - so it must be helice. The greenish tinge noted is a good sign too, and the overall appearance leaves me in no doubt at all.

Surely a pale clouded yellow must turn up soon with all these clouded yellows. If and when it does, I'm sure it will stand out like a sore thumb! I think I can honestly say I've never had any doubt in the field between crocea and hyale/alfacariensis - the only difficulty comes in separating the latter two.

Guy

[David M]

Surely a pale clouded yellow must turn up soon with all these clouded yellows. If and when it does, I'm sure it will stand out like a sore thumb! I think I can honestly say I've never had any doubt in the field between crocea and hyale/alfacariensis - the only difficulty comes in separating the latter two.

I take it that the backlit shot shows the outer black forewing band to be quite broad all the way down in helice whereas in Pale/Berger's it would taper quite abruptly?

[Padfield]

I take it that the backlit shot shows the outer black forewing band to be quite broad all the way down in helice whereas in Pale/Berger's it would taper quite abruptly?

Yes. In hyalensis (my word for alfy and hyale) the dark border tapers to outside the row of pd spots:


(alfy)

Guy

[David M]

It's so obvious when you see it. Sadly, we UK residents see it either once every Preston Guild or not at all!

Thanks for the tutorial, Guy.

[MikeOxon]

very obviously not pale clouded or Berger's

For those of us a bit behind the curve, your more recent post has helped a lot

Mike

[Paul Harfield]

Hi All

Thanks for the quick responses. Thanks Guy for the detailed comparison and for the pointer on how to photograph for the purposes of id on these species.
I take it, from what I have seen today, that there is quite considerable colour variation in the degree of helice that an individual displays

I will keep on looking and hopefully that Pale Clouded Yellow will turn up, now I know what to look for

[Pete Eeles]

And the distinction can be very subtle. Guy's image is, I believe, of a male hyalensis (like it!). The females have darker borders which can run very close to the line of spots (and not always outside them), as in this (I believe to be) hyale:

Cheers,

- Pete

[Padfield]

That's an interesting picture, Pete!

Are you sure there's no other shadow playing a role there? The dark band on the hindwing doesn't correspond to any markings on the upperside and I suspect that the forewing shadow is a continuation of the same thing - or at least, the pattern is somewhat obscured by this.

A useful indicator is the pale spot in s.3. In crocea this will be fully enclosed in the dark border while in hyalensis it will be open on the inside. If you take away the spurious (as I see it) shadow on the forewing, I think this spot is still open in Pete's picture. I agree, the dark border is quite broad even so (and it is broader in hyale than alfy) but it is not complete inside the pd spots.

Here is a female upperside - again of alfy, not hyale:



Guy

EDIT - looking at other pictures, the spot in s.3 may be narrowly bounded internally in hyalensis but that in s.2 never is. In crocea both are fully enclosed.

[Pete Eeles]

Oops! Absolutely right, Guy - for some reason I blotted the "other" shadow out of my mind! Anyway, I've drawn what I meant on the lady below, to clarify what I see as the edge of the black markings on the forewing.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Mark Tutton]

Hi All
Given the numbers of CY turning up at the moment - I visited four sites yesterday and they were present at every site - Pale/Bergers must surely turn up next. A potential was reported in June from Hampshire, by an experieced observer, but unfortunately no photo. In fact I thought that would be the next question I would have raised rather than a picture of a LTB
The weather is set fair this week so I need to find a nice big Lucerne field I'll be trying hard as the opportunity to specifically look doesn't come around very often
Mark