Frozen Planet

[Gruditch]

Zero butterflies, but I've just watched the first episode of Frozen Planet. Breath taking, beautifully filmed documentary.

Regards Gruditch

[Susie]

Probably the best thing I've seen on telly for ages.

My daughter even posted on facebook how embarrasssing I was as I cheered on the penguin as it escaped. The seal wasn't so lucky.

[David M]

I rarely set aside time to watch a television programme in the mid to late evening, but I broke with convention for this (and was glad I did).

As you would expect from any series involving David Attenborough, the camera work and narrative was higher than first class and the way those Killer Whales
skittled that seal into the water was both cruel and awe-inspiring to an equal degree.

If someone were to grant me a wish and that wish was to live the life of a single known human being, then I would have no hesitation in choosing Sir David Attenborough. He has seen more of the world than practically anybody else and has certainly seen more of the world's wildlife than anyone. I'm sure in quiet moments of reflection he would be magnanimous enough to admit that he truly has lived a dream in his 85 years.

It's only when someone dies that people realise what they've lost and I'd genuinely put him immediately behind the Queen in terms of abiding British icons.

[ChrisC]

no butterflies but not devoid of lepidoptera. i'm not going to spoil it as i believe they are doing a piece on it. or at least i hope they are. an amazing insect coming up.

Chris

[EricY]

Superb & essential viewing for me as I am a bit of an "ice nut", having started off by going to the Antarctic on my National Service (who remembers that!). I re-visited 50 years later & have been to all the easily accessible ice areas of the world. No did not see any butterflies but did see a moth at North Cape Of Norway. Eric

[Piers]

the way those Killer Whales
skittled that seal into the water was both cruel and awe-inspiring

Interesting. Are the Orca really cruel; wilfully causing pain or distress for it's own sake? This is interesting because the BBC have long been criticized for showing animals 'behaving cruelly' during wildlife documentaries, such as lingering shots of a lioness taking down an infant wildebeast.

Discuss...

[Susie]

Is that intentional cruelty on the part of the lioness though or just the BBCs choice to show more of the kill than is strictly necessary to illustrate the act?

The killer whales did appear, to me and from what I was able to see of the programme although I am aware that how the film is cut can influence my opinion, to be playing with the seal prior to it's death. I don't think they were being intentionally cruel, to do that they would have to have an understanding of the seal's feelings, but in the same way that a huntsman can enjoy the thrill of the chase I think those whales got a kick out of hunting that seal and were confident to prolong that feeling.

[David M]

the way those Killer Whales
skittled that seal into the water was both cruel and awe-inspiring

Interesting. Are the Orca really cruel; wilfully causing pain or distress for it's own sake? This is interesting because the BBC have long been criticized for showing animals 'behaving cruelly' during wildlife documentaries, such as lingering shots of a lioness taking down an infant wildebeast.

Discuss...

I suppose it was cruel from the seal's point of view, Piers, but nature can often be brutal and I really don't see why any broadcaster should feel compelled to sanitise it just because a certain proportion of the UK population has gone soft over the past generation.

When I was living with a French girlfriend a few years ago, she has a subscription to some French channels, and we would often watch a programme called Thalassa together. It struck me almost immediately how much more graphic the scenes were than those normally seen on British wildlife documentaries. It didn't bother me in the slightest as this kind of thing goes on every second of the day regardless of whether we watch it or not, but clearly the British public prefers a 'dumbed-down' version of events.

That said (and on the subject of Orcas), I remember the last major wildlife series narrated by David Attenborough showed Killer Whales catching seals and proceeding to flip them (still alive) several dozen feet in the air with their powerful tails before finally eating them. I still don't think anyone has managed to explain why they do this - to a human it does seem like some kind of sadistic ritual.

[Susie]

I don't see why animals can't be cruel and kill for the fun of it just as some people can.

[ChrisC]

i watched the first one today and wow, absolutely stunning. as for the orca's, what a passage of film. superb.

Chris

[David M]

I don't see why animals can't be cruel and kill for the fun of it just as some people can.

They can. Domestic cats do it on a regular basis.

[Piers]

Do domestic cats actually kill as a leisure pursuit? or is it instinctive for the animal to attack and kill a young blue tit (for example)? The more practise the predator gets, the more likely it is to succeed when survival depends upon it and food is scarce.

[David M]

Do domestic cats actually kill as a leisure pursuit? or is it instinctive for the animal to attack and kill a young blue tit (for example)? The more practise the predator gets, the more likely it is to succeed when survival depends upon it and food is scarce.

It's hard to say. Perhaps we're looking at a behavioural trait that doesn't truly exist in the wild, and can only be witnessed under semi-domestication.

Cats have homes and are generally adequately fed. That said, they have an instinctive desire to stalk small prey. Obviously, in a wild situation they would eat any such prey captured, yet in suburbia they have the best of both worlds: they can eat as much as they want passively in a warm home yet go out when they feel like it and do what their instinct demands - pounce on small creatures. The fact that they often don't kill them but instead bring them back to the homes of their masters is maybe a trait that doesn't have a parallel in the wild.

[Padfield]

In many more behaviourally advanced species, play seems to have evolved as a way of perfecting (while juvenile) or maintaining (while adult) skills. Taking pleasure in what is essentially work is an enormous evolutionary advantage.

It is no coincidence that the Latin word ludus means both 'game' and 'school', nor that the Greek word 'schole', which lies at the root of the English word 'school', means 'lesiure'!!

A lot of teachers could learn from this...

Guy

[Susie]

Do domestic cats actually kill as a leisure pursuit? or is it instinctive for the animal to attack and kill a young blue tit (for example)? The more practise the predator gets, the more likely it is to succeed when survival depends upon it and food is scarce.

I don't see why a cat shouldn't kill as a leisure pursuit. If endorphins are released when it kills, and such release gives it pleasure, wouldn't it be killing for pleasure and a side benefit would be the practical skills it acquired (or vice versa)?

I've seen lots of discussions on the web which explain why people and other mammals are not the same but I still believe that we are not so dissimilar and that the majority of our basic instincts and emotions are the same. Just one example would be when I had my babies I scent marked them, just as an animal would.

[Susie]

In many more behaviourally advanced species, play seems to have evolved as a way of perfecting (while juvenile) or maintaining (while adult) skills. Taking pleasure in what is essentially work is an enormous evolutionary advantage.

It is no coincidence that the Latin word ludus means both 'game' and 'school', nor that the Greek word 'schole', which lies at the root of the English word 'school', means 'lesiure'!!

A lot of teachers could learn from this...

Guy

Fascinating. There's no secret why you're such a good teacher, Guy, because you make learning fun

[Padfield]

I've seen lots of discussions on the web which explain why people and other mammals are not the same but I still believe that we are not so dissimilar and that the majority of our basic instincts and emotions are the same.

I learnt more about teaching from educating my dog than from any number of educational publications. Dogs, like children, learn most effectively from playful conditioning, reinforced by reward (and to a more limited extent, punishment, though as a vet explained to me when I asked for advice about training, a dog should come to you when you call because it wants to, not because it is frightened of the consequences of not coming).

Guy

EDIT - posts crossed - thanks, Susie!

[Susie]

You're welcome.

[Piers]

a dog should come to you when you call because it wants to, not because it is frightened of the consequences of not coming

Quite right: Reward is used to encourage, chastisement to deter. You can't train a dog to respond to a positive command through chastising it..!

Piers.

[Dave McCormick]

no butterflies but not devoid of lepidoptera. i'm not going to spoil it as i believe they are doing a piece on it. or at least i hope they are. an amazing insect coming up.

Chris

I know what it is and can't wait to see it, I'll say no more either.

I suppose it was cruel from the seal's point of view, Piers, but nature can often be brutal and I really don't see why any broadcaster should feel compelled to sanitise it just because a certain proportion of the UK population has gone soft over the past generation.

Me neither, the point of programmes like this, is to show nature as it is, and this is what happens in nature, cruel from seals point of view, but things like this keep a species population in check or else the species may over breed and end up having bad consequences...just look at the human race and see how over population is affecting us.

You shouldn't want to see nature documentaries and want to stay blind to what exactly happens out there a lot of the time.

I've seen lots of discussions on the web which explain why people and other mammals are not the same but I still believe that we are not so dissimilar and that the majority of our basic instincts and emotions are the same. Just one example would be when I had my babies I scent marked them, just as an animal would.

Me too, we are very similar to other mammals, all do the same thing, females produce milk, rear young, many teach their young to survive by how they survive and showing them what they have learned, all things we do, we just do things a little differently. Woman breastfeed their babies (although we can have the choice not to, other mammals need the milk as a baby), parents impart their values on their children so they can grow up right, same as how other mammals teach their young to look after themselves, the only real difference with that is that humans have much other influences to define how they act or feel or grow up whereas mammals only have their group or parent(s) to influence that depending on the species.

Looking forward to tonight's episode. Bit offtopic, but I have often wondered why there never has been a David Attenborough series on butterflies and moths, there has been a few bits here and there about them, but nothing much compared to say, the amount on one type of animal life in "life of birds" or "life in cold blood". Since he is president of BC, often wondered why no series on Lepidoptera as yet.