Help please!

[Wurzel]

I was looking through something I'm working on and got a sudden panic about the butterflies shown below. Can I get confirmaiton that they are all Brown Argus - I probably checked their underwings at the time which is why I thought they were but as it's been almost 6 weeks since I saw my last Argus doubts have started to creep in...

Cheers, have a goodun

Wurzel

[millerd]

Every one an Argus! I can't see a single blue scale on the first one (a female), and the others are all male. So definitely not Common Blue.

Dave

[Wurzel]

Cheers Dave I thought were but I just needed to be certain. Once even the smallest seed of doubt was in there it just kept nagging away!

Have a goodun

Wurzel

[Nick Broomer]

hi wurzel
they are all brown argus. here is a picture of a brown female common blue so you can see the difference for yourself. don`t have a picture my self, so i photogrphed it from a book. thats why the quality of the picture is rather poor. thought it would be easier this way for you, and me.

nick

[Wurzel]

Cheers Neil, I'll get a copy of that for future reference

Have a goodun

Wurzel

[Nick Broomer]

Thats okay Wurzel, my pleasure.

But my name is Nick NOT Neil

[millerd]

Cheers Dave I thought were but I just needed to be certain. Once even the smallest seed of doubt was in there it just kept nagging away!

Wurzel

Much easier to tell when they're there in front of you - it's always when you go through the photos afterwards that the doubt creeps in. I always forget just how small these little chaps are compared (generally) to Common Blues, and it doesn't show up in the photos when you're back home...

Dave

[David M]

I used to panic before I moved to south Wales as I'd seen Brown Argus very infrequently and thought I'd have trouble distinguishing them from female Common Blues that were particularly brown. In reality however, there is no mistaking the two from one another. Male Brown Argus are so delicate and tiny whilst the larger females lack any blue dusting near the abdomen that female Common Blues always have.

[Wurzel]

Sorry Nick I'm not much good with names although I did think that I was okay at reading - but by making that particular faux pas it suggests that perhaps I'm not as good as I thought

Cheers Dave and Dave - in the field I generally use the size difference first, then a look at the under wing markings before confirming with the "jizz" and the upper wings, but when you're sorting through past photos you're left with only the last one! I often see blue on Brown Argus when really there isn't any - I think I better get my eyes tested - I might have the opposite of colour blindness!

Have a goodun

Wurzel

[dilettante]

in the field I generally use the size difference first, then a look at the under wing markings before confirming with the "jizz" and the upper wings, but when you're sorting through past photos you're left with only the last one!

As someone who asked a similar id question at the start of the season and felt stupid when I got the answer : I think the first thing to check is the sex. The abdomen shape for males is very distinctive, so you know straight away they can't be Common Blues.

I often see blue on Brown Argus when really there isn't any - I think I better get my eyes tested - I might have the opposite of colour blindness!

BAs do have a blue-ish sheen (irridescence) in some lights but, as I understand it, no actual blue-pigmented scales.

[Neil Hulme]

Hi Wurzel,
"I often see blue on Brown Argus when really there isn't any"
Male Brown Argus sometimes have quite extensive blue hair on the thorax, abdomen (proximal part) and over the wing bases, which together, under some light conditions, can give the butterfly a noticeably blue appearance. But there are no blue scales on the wings. The over-simplistic rule 'no blue on a Brown Argus' will continue to present as many identification problems for the less-experienced as 'Small versus Essex Skipper'. However, a male Brown Argus with blue hairs can always be 'sexed' on the basis of its relatively elongate abdomen; of course male Common Blues are rather blue!
Neil

[MikeOxon]

Much easier to tell when they're there in front of you

That is so true.

I have expert birding friends who hate being asked to do an i.d. from a photo. As they point out, there are so many characters which are obvious in the field but are completely lost in a photo.

In the case of butterflies, size is an obvious one but the angle from which a photo is taken can distort shapes and produce strange lighting effects. I have lots of photos of brown butterflies which show a strong blue/purple sheen which, in reality, is only fleetingly visible at certain angles and is obviously an optical interfence effect (like oil film on water).,

Mike

[Wurzel]

First up thanks Neil and Mike and sorry I didn't get back to you until now - I wasn't meaning to be rude - just very, very busy.

I have almost finished working on the project I was doing when I had a crisis of confidence about the Brown Argus but another problem has arisen...

Please can someone help me with the identification of the gender of the Dark Green Fritillaries involved in the threesome in the shot below?
I believed the interloper (the readers' left) to be a male ramming into the female (the readers' right) while the copulating male (bottom) clasped on for all he was worth. Am I correct?

Cheers in anticipation of all your help

Have a goodun

Wurzel

[Nick Broomer]

Its a male alrght, i have never known a female to try and get in on the action if she did`nt have too, but males yes all the time.

Nick.

[David M]

The female is probably the higher of the two that are 'in the act'. She's very fresh looking whilst the specimen below is rather more worn. It would be unusual for a female to be some days old and consequently faded and tatty without being mated.

[Wurzel]

Cheers Nick and David you're thinking the same as me! I thought that the top one was female as she looked larger than the other two and was fresher, so I'll go with that

Have a goodun

Wurzel