Hawk moth?

[Lee Hurrell]

Ok, weird one today....I saw what I thought was a Hummingbird Hawk moth in Brent River Park. It was perhaps a little smaller though and the colours were not quite right.

It stopped very briefly in front of me on a low plant, curled its abdomen round the way a female butterfly does when she is egg laying and I could see (I think) 2 rows of black spots on a pale background colour on the underside of the abdomen. I also saw a small flash of colour, orange or dusky pink. It also had brown and black I think.

The only plants in the vicinity of where it stopped were nettles, grasses and whatever it is it that leaves those sticky buds on you. I didn't find the egg though.

Any ideas?

[Michaeljf]

The only plants in the vicinity of where it stopped were nettles, grasses and whatever it is it that leaves those sticky buds on you. I didn't find the egg though. Any ideas?

I think that's Goosegrass, which looks a bit like a Hedge (i.e. white-flowered) Bedstraw. As to the Butterfly / moth, it could be anything. Your description still could be a Hummingbird Hawkmoth. I presume you didn't see any Hairstreaks Lee?
Michael

[Susie]

Silver Y moths frequently fly during the day.

[ChrisC]

have you looked at broad bordered bee hawk moth?

Chris

[Paul Wetton]

The colours sound about right for one of the Bordered Bee Hawk Moths.
From the upperside they have two bands of dark grey / black, around the body. One about mid section and one at the end of the tail section, broader in the Broad Bordered.
The wings are edged with dusky pink or brick red / orange. The rest of the body is paler grey possibly tinged yellow and the wings clear.
I've got no piccies so he's a link to BBH on UKMoths.
http://ukmoths.org.uk/show.php?id=1054

[Lee Hurrell]

Thanks all for your suggestions.

Michael - unfortunately no hairstreaks although I gave them a good search!

Susie - definitely not a Silver Y, aty least twice the size.

Chris / Paul - could be.

I think Hummingbird or Bee Hawk is most likely although both don't quite fit with what I saw. It was too light for a Hummingbird and a longer and had a more pointy abdomen than both that or a Bee Hawk.

Thanks for your help though!

Cheers

Lee

[Piers]

Small elephant hawk moth?

They behave much like hummingbird hawk moths; zipping around, hovering at flowers while they sup nectar with their lengthy proboscis, and are a similar size to hummingbird hawks aswell. We are lucky to have a few in the garden at the moment and they are particularly partial to the sage flower spikes.

Small elephants lay on galium (the plant you describe) and have 'pointy' abdomens.

[Lee Hurrell]

Good shout Piers, although no where near as pink, or brightly coloured. Size would be about right. And it was fast.

I thought I might be able to trace it via the abdomenal underside spots but of course no books or websites I can find show the undersides of moths!

Thanks

Lee

[Susie]

Ruby tiger has a dotty underside.

[Piers]

Assuming it was laying when you saw the moth, I guess the first thing to do would be to narrow the list of possibilities down to those species whose larvae feed on galium... (such as Susie's suggestion )

[Susie]

Size would be wrong for ruby tiger tho.

[Lee Hurrell]

I did find a Ruby Tiger larvae not far away last year.

But thanks all for your suggestions, I'll do some investigation on foodplants and dots.

Thanks

Lee

[Dave McCormick]

If it were a broad bordered bee hawk moth, It will use goosegrass since its a type of bedstraw (Gallium), so would hummingbird hawk-moth. I found hummingbird cats on goosegrass and reared them on it before.

[Piers]

That's very interesting Dave, I thought that broad bordered bee hawks were limited to honeysuckle, snowberrry, etc.

[Dave McCormick]

That's very interesting Dave, I thought that broad bordered bee hawks were limited to honeysuckle, snowberrry, etc.

Their main foodplants are Galium (Bedstraws) and Honeysuckle. Snowberry is related to honeysuckle but its North American and often used in hedging in UK and quite a few honeysuckle feeders use it (Early Grey, Lilac Beauty etc...) Goosegrass (or stickyweed) is Galium aparine is part of the Rubiaceae family of bedstraws and has similar flowers to bedstraws like hedge bedstraw (tiny white flowers) so if it its there and other bedsteaws are not, or not as common as the goosegrass, a bedstraw feeder could use it.

[Philzoid]

There is an american bee hawkmoth called the Snowberry clearwing which cna be purchased from pupae suppliers. Could be a release?
I would say that if it was "twice the size" of a Silver Y it wouldn't be a bee hawkmoth, which I would say are similar in size. The description of fast flying does suggest hawkmoth .... lighter in colour and flying over gallium ... bedstraw Hawk but I'm guessing

[Lee Hurrell]

Thanks again all.

Having seen Broad Bordered Bee Hawk moths in France I can say with certainty it wasn't one of those.

When image searching Bedstraw Hawks on the interweb I did find some slightly showing the underside and it does have black spotting, although with larger spots and the underside seems a bit darker than I saw.

However, the rest all fits though, hawk moth type flight, colours, foodplant and pointy abdomen.

Thanks!

Lee