Photography Code of Practice

[David M]

What - you've never come across someone trampling down nectar sources or larval foodplants to get a photo?

Thankfully not, Pete.

- Masses of visitors going to Stockbridge Down to see Black-veined White. The best part of the down for Marbled White was trashed.

That's very sad, but I think the key word here is "masses". Had Black Veined Whites not been present on the site, I daresay the down would not have been damaged. Was it not simply the sheer numbers visiting the site that caused the destruction rather than the behaviour of those who attended? After all, if hundreds of people descend on a small site within a short time period that is clearly going to lead to habitat damage.

I guess all sites have a tolerance capacity. The important thing is to ensure this isn't exceeded, but that's obviously easier said than done.

[Piers]

Not being a photographer, I rarely visit this thread. However Pete indirectly brought it to my attention.

People just need to ask themselves: what is their primary concern? the conservation and welfare of butterflies & moths, or obtaining a precious photograph?

If it's the latter then shame on you.

You are no better than the collectors of old that you are so very quick to condemn. In fact you're probably worse, for at least the majority of collectors were also worthy naturalists.

[Susie]

Steady on there, Tiger.

[Paul]

Finally I feel goaded into a response. If those self righteous t**ts on here are so right about not breathing near a butterfly, then we might as well let the establishment juggernaut concrete over whats left of this sh**ty little empire!
This country has so many rules there is becoming a silent understanding that if a rule such as "don't put your hand in a flame 'cos it burns" isn't actually put by a fire, it is OK to do it.
If species are THAT at risk, why the hell doesn't BC and academia do more to protect them, like put barbed wire round sensitive sites... that's the way to "protect" them all right...
This site has many followers who take photos and are proud of them. It is unbelievable Felix to say we are no better than collectors... shame on you.
IMHO some academics would far prefer to count down the extinction of a species than support it's spread. Are you one of them F. ??
We love our butterflies and would not see them harmed... we watch where we tread and respect them. If you alienate everyone except "academics"then you will end up with your kind of website no doubt, dry, crisp and dead, pretty much like the species you are so self righteous about.

I think I might not bother with this site again now, thanks F

[David M]

Not being a photographer, I rarely visit this thread. However Pete indirectly brought it to my attention.

People just need to ask themselves: what is their primary concern? the conservation and welfare of butterflies & moths, or obtaining a precious photograph?

If it's the latter then shame on you.

You are no better than the collectors of old that you are so very quick to condemn. In fact you're probably worse, for at least the majority of collectors were also worthy naturalists.

I'm going to put my neck on the line here and say that (IMHO) this forum has become increasingly dominated by what I would describe as 'twitchers', people who are only interested obtaining photographs of butterflies, and nothing further. You may as well be photographing road signs. What has your hobby got to do with entomological study or even a more spiritual appreciation of nature?

I find the idea of butterfly twitching so nauseating that I find myself having less and less in common with the majority of forum posters these days, so I no longer bother to post anything myself.

Felix.

Does one have to be a 'naturalist' or a student of entomology in order to be allowed to take photographs of butterflies these days?

What's more, does possessing a 'spiritual appreciation of nature' automatically preclude an individual from indulging in photography?

I love butterflies, and have done so ever since I was a child. I'm also developing an interest in photographing them (although at a level way beneath many of those who contribute to this forum). I'm a member of both BC AND RSPB and have volunteered my services free of charge to assist in efforts towards conservation in Wales as well as furnishing reports of sightings to County recorders.

The idea that some (particularly one so knowledgeable) might find me 'nauseating' because I happen to enjoy capturing on film as many butterflies as I can whilst going about my chosen leisure pursuit saddens me greatly.

[Piers]

Clearly neither of you have actually taken the time to read my post, or you wouldn't be taking this tone. I said:

If taking photographs is more important to you than the welfare of the insect and/or the environment then shame on you.

I stand by that statement for it is my deeply held personal belief.

And I judge from your ire that you would sooner have your photographs regardless of what cost to the insect's themselves and/or their environment.

I am not going to apologise for finding that selfish attitude acutely nauseating.

Felix.

[David M]

Clearly neither of you have actually taken the time to read my post, or you wouldn't be taking this tone. I said:

If taking photographs is more important to you than the welfare of the insect and/or the environment then same on you.

I stand by that statement for it is my deeply held personal belief.

And I judge from your ire that you would sooner have your photographs regardless of what cost to the insect's themselves and/or their environment.

I am not going to apologise for finding that selfish attitude acutely nauseating.

Felix.

You carry on with your crusade if you must.

You will lose much respect with tirades such as this.

[millerd]

This will run and run!

I don't count myself as an expert, just someone who enjoys going out in the fresh air and seeing beautiful insects in their natural environment. Yes, I like to take photos, so that I can continue to enjoy these creatures at home, perhaps in the depth of the dreariest winter. While I take my photos, I also find I learn a lot about behaviour, as I follow the butterflies that bit more closely. I also start to find the more unusual (the Adonis deformities/aberrations referred to elsewhere, for example). By bringing that to this forum, with perhaps some idle non-scientific speculation, I hope to pick up more tidbits from those far more expert than myself - and perhaps add a little to the general fund of knowledge at the same time. That at least may benefit the welfare of these creatures in the future.

Heaven forbid that some awful scourge is poised to wipe out the Adonis Blue, but if our recent observations (and photographs) were to mark the first hints of it, then they might prove invaluable.

It's rather different to collecting one of each stamp to pop in the album each year. The photography is part of a the whole, not the driver.

Dave

[Rogerdodge]

I am not going to apologise for finding that selfish attitude acutely nauseating

Felix
At least taking a photograph leaves the butterfly to be seen by others.
Taking the specimen for a collection removes that opportunity - and is thus infinitley more selfish.

You are no better than the collectors of old that you are so very quick to condemn. In fact you're probably worse, for at least the majority of collectors were also worthy naturalists.

Felix - I think a goodly proportion of the actual "collectors" of old were actually pretty careless mercenaries. Tromping down to North Cornwall and collecting every living specimen of Large Blue, and hot-footing it back to London to sell thier booty to wealthy collectors. Charming. I think modern day photographers are a little better than that.

I'm going to put my neck on the line here and say that (IMHO) this forum has become increasingly dominated by what I would describe as 'twitchers', people who are only interested obtaining photographs of butterflies, and nothing further. You may as well be photographing road signs. What has your hobby got to do with entomological study or even a more spiritual appreciation of nature?

I'm no scientist. I don't really think I am a twitcher. I like to set out each weekend to see target species - sometimes at new (to me) sites. I like to photograph what I see. I have a fair knowledge of butterfly biology and ecology (you sort of have to to do what I/we do). Is my pastime so wrong? I do not plan to write a paper. I do not want to spend hours pooroing over set specimens in a museum. I just want to enjoy the creatures in thier environment - and all the other bits of that nature that pop up as well. Is this so wrong? Enjoying nature for it's own sake? Felix - we aren't all equiped to be acedemics. Please don't knock us for that shortfalling.

I would like to know however - Do you collect set specimens yourself. Either caught and set by yourself or others?

[Piers]

Fair enough David, you are as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Guy Padfield wrote:

I must have held my breath for over a minute while I took three or four pictures. And I'm proud to say I backed off without the Camberwell beauty even knowing I had been in there!

Paul wrote:

If those self righteous t**ts on here are so right about not breathing near a butterfly

[Paul]

Felix you disgust me. Your insults must come from a very sad soul. search yourself and let everyone enjoy butterflies, not just you. You do not know me, your assumptions are wrong, grow up.

I assume Guy will realize it was not his comments I had in mind.. manipulative as well eh Felix. sigh

[Piers]

I am not going to apologise for finding that selfish attitude acutely nauseating

Felix
At least taking a photograph leaves the butterfly to be seen by others.
Taking the specimen for a collection removes that opportunity - and is thus infinitley more selfish.

Roger. I said "you would sooner have your photographs regardless of what cost to the insect's themselves and/or their environment I am not going to apologise for finding that selfish attitude acutely nauseating"

You have mis-quoted me terribly, and I take it that you do not share my sentiment. Fair enough, you are of course entitled to your opinion.

Felix.

[Piers]

Felix you disgust me. Your insults must come from a very sad soul. search yourself and let everyone enjoy butterflies, not just you. You do not know me, your assumptions are wrong, grow up.

I assume Guy will realize it was not his comments I had in mind.. manipulative as well eh Felix. sigh

.

[Rogerdodge]

Felix
You are being a jerk.
I do hope you have been drinking.

[Piers]

I can not stress how surprised I am that my sentiment:

"If taking photographs is more important to you than the welfare of the insect and/or the environment then shame on you"

Has roused such a vitriolic response.

Felix.

[Rogerdodge]

Felix
It wasn't that phrase.
After all, I don't think anyone one on here values the photograph above the welfare of the subject,.
It is your holier than thou, self righteous, and pompous attitude.
"I'm a scientist and you lot aren't worthy"
I used to respect you.
That is fading.
Not gone.
But fading

So - how big is your collection then?

[Susie]

Perhaps you hit a nerve, Felix.

I am surprised by how extreme some of the replies to Felix have been. If he didn't have a point then surely his comments wouldn't have received such a heated response from some quarters.

[David M]

I think it's best that we all drop this particular hot potato whilst some element of mutual respect still remains.

I have very high opinions of certain people on this forum, and I wouldn't want those to be diminished due to a brief if forthright exchange of views on a topic that clearly divides people.

I accept Felix doesn't like people whose true intention is to get a 'trophy' shot of a butterfly whilst remaining largely ignorant and disinterested in its overall well being.

Similarly, a lot of us derive great pleasure from the beauty of these creatures and photography is a relatively harmless and worthwhile way of appreciating these insects all the more. Understandably, these people would take offence at any perceived bracketing alongside those shutter-happy types who care little for the welfare of butterflies.

Apart from the guy (Sergei Popov?) who was on here recently promoting collecting trips to the Ukraine, I genuinely can't think of a single individual posting on this site who is anything other than sincerely concerned about the well being of butterflies.

[Piers]

Felix
It wasn't that phrase.
After all, I don't think anyone one on here values the photograph above the welfare of the subject,.
It is your holier than thou, self righteous, and pompous attitude.
"I'm a scientist and you lot aren't worthy"

Oh come off it Rog, every one has been super fast to condemn what I said not how I said it; merely by suggesting that taking photographs to the exclusion of any care for the welfare or appreciation of the subject is nauseating (to me). Oh, and by referring to that type of person as a 'twitcher'.

Everyone on here knows that I have nothing against photography of butterflies, I have commented many times that I am often in awe of some of the stunning images that are presented on the site that, for me, really capture the essence of the subject.

Felix.

[Gibster]

Cripes, just logged in for the first time in a couple of days to find UKButterflies at war with itself!!!!

Today I visited a lovely disused quarry and succeeded in taking some pretty fair (by my standards...) pics of a Dingy Skipper and a handful of Wood Whites. Several times I found myself thinking about this very thread. I'm always careful to check for thistles, brambles, roses etc before crouching/squatting/laying down for a shot anyway. Today I also concentrated on trying not to kneel on anything that looked like a nectar source, Wild Strawberry or BFT. And I tried to lift my feet high through the grasses or keep to bare areas rather than blunder willy-nilly through the habitat. I'm not yet at the fully-fledged ninja stage, but I managed to cause less habitat disturbance than would a herd of stampeding rhino's.

On a purely personal note, I enjoy sneaking up to (for example) butterflies and going in for a decent pic. I used to carry pooter, beating tray, sweep net, hand lens, umpteen pots and jars, a killing jar, ID guides, binoculars, telescope and tripod... nowadays it's just binoculars, a hand lens, ID guides and a camera. And practice makes perfect. I'm definitely getting better images now than this time last year.

So I'm happy to continue with the photography side of my interest in butterflies, and I'm also happy to try and minimise the trampling of foodplants/larva/resting adult insects. Same as I try not to disturb nesting birds, always put logs/stones back as I found them if looking underneath them and never ever drop litter. Other individuals may or may not agree with this. I speak only for myself, a keen amateur naturalist.

Hope everybody's still talking to each other tomorrow!

Gibster.