Butterflies - A Very British Obsession

[Jack Harrison]

...Bozo or not was he the gentleman who introduced Silver-studded Blue, Dark Green Fritillary and from what I have heard the scottish sub species of Scotch Argus into North Notts...

When I visited Lindrick Common near Worksop last summer I did indeed see Marbled White, Dark Green Fritillary and Scotch Argus. I met a couple there who clearly knew all about the introductions but I couldn’t wheedle the name of the person responsible out of them. We now know from that TV programme that it is (presumably) Martin White. The same person apparently has been responsible for the Marsh Fritillary (and probably other species) at Chambers Farm Wood in Lincolnshire. The people I met at Lindrick further added that DNA sampling has shown the Marsh Frits at Chambers Farm Wood to be on continental origin.

I have mixed views about Mr. White’s actions. But certainly we need to be told more about what he does.

As for the TV programme, Matthew and Neil certainly came across exactly as I know them (but I do suspect the Neil had borrowed Matthew’s bike). Mildly eccentric but their enthusiasm showed through. Excellent! Clive Farrell certainly gave a good advert for his project – a visit is certainly amongst next year’s plans. The photography, especially the time-lapse was stunning.

I found Imelda Staunton’s narration perfectly acceptable but I can’t say the same about the incessant and often gratuitous background “music”. And I couldn’t quite see the point of including the tattoo convention (decidedly unappealing images). The “street artist” and Notting Hill Carnival gave the impression of simply being time-fillers and added very little.

Jack

[Rogerdodge]

Felix

That's an interesting comparison...

I quote-

He is a consultant entomologist specialising in British Butterflies. What he doesn't know about the ecology of butterflies such as the Large Heath probably isn't worth knowing, and he has made significant advances in our understanding of such species and their conservation requirements.

You seemed to be using his knowledge as a defence for his questionable, and, by his own admission, occasionally illegal activities.
Before I change my opinion (mind NOT made up - yet) I would like to know what, and why, other scientists think of his activities.
I am sure he is doing it with good intentions - but is it enough. Is it really any better than the map or marbled frit or glanville introductions?
The Prees Heath activities were, undoubtedly carried out with a number of experts working in concert. Whereas it seems that this chap is ploughing his own furrow, and seemingly not cooperating with other scientists? I don't know, but, as I said, would like more information.

Guy wrote

I completely understand how it disappointed many people on this forum, but I imagine it excited rather more people who have never signed on here.

Indeed Guy. I have just had a call from a sister in law who said how fascinating it was, and she understands a little more why I am so obsessed with butterflies.

Paul wrote

Overall I thought the program had some brilliant slowmo flight shots and some excellent time lapse footage

Indeed Paul - brilliant stuff.
However, as much as you or I (or most of the folk on this forum) would love an hour of that alone, the general public need diversion, and the graffiti artist, dance, tattoo etc were just that - light breaks in the middle of some serious stuff.
The commentary was pretty poor - a lot of statements were made but not answered or investigated.
For example during the section that Felix and I are discussing, it was mentioned that it was controversial, but not why.

I’d give it sevUn
(yes – I have watched a bit of Strictly )

[Piers]

You seemed to be using his knowledge as a defence for his questionable, and, by his own admission, occasionally illegal activities.

Not at all, as I said, I am not standing in judgement, you asked who he was and this was my response.

The Prees Heath activities were, undoubtedly carried out with a number of experts working in concert.

Not that I am aware; it was just Mr White I think.

I would like to know what, and why, other scientists think of his activities.

As in most things, opinion is divided.

[Neil Jones]

...Bozo or not was he the gentleman who introduced Silver-studded Blue, Dark Green Fritillary and from what I have heard the scottish sub species of Scotch Argus into North Notts...

When I visited Lindrick Common near Worksop last summer I did indeed see Marbled White, Dark Green Fritillary and Scotch Argus. I met a couple there who clearly knew all about the introductions but I couldn’t wheedle the name of the person responsible out of them. We now know from that TV programme that it is (presumably) Martin White. The same person apparently has been responsible for the Marsh Fritillary (and probably other species) at Chambers Farm Wood in Lincolnshire. The people I met at Lindrick further added that DNA sampling has shown the Marsh Frits at Chambers Farm Wood to be on continental origin.

I have mixed views about Mr. White’s actions. But certainly we need to be told more about what he does.

This is one of the real problems I had with this. This was not covered properly at all. In fact the narration was continuously full of falsehoods. They kept saying and implying that this works. Now we have some pretty good data on this (Oates, M. R. & Warren M. S. (1990). A review of Butterfly introductions in Britain and Ireland. World Wide Fund for Nature, Goldaming, UK.) and we know that in most cases IT DOES NOT WORK!. The omission of mention of these data from the programme is a serious one.
What happens is that they last a few years, sometimes longer because the people doing it keep releasing more, and then die out. This causes several very very serious problems. One is that people won't believe that records are genuine . I already have heard a councillor at a meeting where the fate of a Marsh Fritillary colony was at stake accusing people of "putting them in jam jars". Another problem is that it encourages developers to destroy sites with promises to move the butterflies which gets them permission and then doesn't work . See this obliteration of an SSSI http://www.swanseafoe.org.uk/selar-sssi ... ou-so.html Yet another problem is people doing conservation work on surreptitious introductions and wasting time because the colony is doomed anyway.

I have to be sceptical of this matter of people being knowledgeable about ecology. I have seen this claim made before of another fanatical breeder and actually found that his knowledge was abysmally poor.
Incidentally I would add that I am not opposed at all to people rearing and breeding butterflies in captivity. It is just that I think we need to take account of the data and the science on releases.

As for the TV programme, Matthew and Neil certainly came across exactly as I know them (but I do suspect the Neil had borrowed Matthew’s bike). Mildly eccentric but their enthusiasm showed through. Excellent! Clive Farrell certainly gave a good advert for his project – a visit is certainly amongst next year’s plans. The photography, especially the time-lapse was stunning.

I found Imelda Staunton’s narration perfectly acceptable but I can’t say the same about the incessant and often gratuitous background “music”. And I couldn’t quite see the point of including the tattoo convention (decidedly unappealing images). The “street artist” and Notting Hill Carnival gave the impression of simply being time-fillers and added very little.

Jack

I found the narration irritating. It was far too sugary. I may have been influenced by the images coming constantly into my head from the Harry Potter film I saw only a day before where Staunton plays Dolores Umbridge, a nasty, sadistic, torturing, toad-like creature who in this film is involved in nazi style persecution of a minority in the wizarding world. Umbridge has been described as the greatest villain since Hannibal Lecter. Staunton is an excellent actor but the image kept intruding.

[Charles Nicol]

The average BC member is certainly over 50,

Cheers,

- Pete

that means i am a mere youngster !!

Charles

[Piers]

Umbridge has been described as the greatest villain since Hannibal Lecter

Only by Stephen King though, in 'Entertainment Weekly'.

I have to be sceptical of this matter of people being knowledgeable about ecology

Indeed. There's a lot of it about.

[Neil Jones]

Umbridge has been described as the greatest villain since Hannibal Lecter

Only by Stephen King though, in 'Entertainment Weekly'.

I have to be sceptical of this matter of people being knowledgeable about ecology

Indeed. There's a lot of it about.

What do you mean?

[Jack Harrison]

Felix:

Indeed. There's a lot of it about.

Neil Jones:

What do you mean?

Maybe Felix could have made things clearer by emphasising the it: "There's a lot of IT about"

Jack

[Susie]

It must be said that the camera work was superb - the flight shots and time lapse sequences were amazing, but the whole programme was disjointed - did we really want to spend so much time at the Notting Hill Carnival or a tattooist's convention?

It may be the cynic in me but I can imagine someone at the BBC trying to sell the idea of the programme and by including the tattoos, dancers, and carnival section they managed to tick a whole host of socio-economic, ethnic, and FEMALE boxes in an interest which is seen as being predominently white, male, and middle class.

[Dave McCormick]

I thought the entire programme was just excellent. Matthew and Neil came across as perfectly sensible individuals, so I can only assume that some judicious editing was in effect The Grayling courtship was just superb - with quality footage throughout. Those that don't live and breathe butterflies must have been truly amazed!

I also appreciated some of the other perspectives represented, especially those of Clive Farrell and Martin White. They really made me think what needs to be done to encourage the next generation of Lepidopterists and to make a real difference. For example, it's not just about the science, it's also about marketing, promotion and connecting with the public.

Cheers,

- Pete

I have to agree, if your not at least slightly interested after seeing that, well don't know if you'd ever be. Like the time lapse stuff a lot with the Brimstone and Orange-Tip etc... Also the mouse and the peacock made me jump when it opened its wings.

I also have to agree with David Nash, the gamekeeper. Where I live is a large country estate and the gamekeeper here feels similar as do I but the forests are not properly managed, so got me thinking, so I am writing a detailed report to the owner of the forests here to see if better management can happen in future to help the wildlife here for the better. Used to be I found lots of small copper here back in 1995-97 but now they are very scarce with a woodland clearing and a river the only two places I ever see them, and lucky to find one at that.

I have mixed views about Mr. White’s actions. But certainly we need to be told more about what he does.

True, if he understood about subspecies, forms and whatnot, it would help, especially what has been mentioned about the Large Heath and its subspecies and grayling too, you don't want to mix subspecies and end up losing one or creating a new one when its not natural.

[Gibster]

Just watched the programme with Sami. Within seconds of it finishing she stated, " That was AWESOME! That was really really good! It would definitely appeal to people who aren't already into butterflies, don't you think? We gotta hitch up with that guy with the giant butterfly garden! What an amaaaaazin programme!"

So there you have it from someone who's fairly recently come into butterflies.

I was glad to see the programme was more than your run-of-the-mill wildlife documentary. The street artist, the Notting Hill Carnival, the tattoo convention. Helps bring the subject to a wider audience. Doubtless there's a tattoo forum out there somewhere telling its members about the programme! Pity none of the tattoos were identifiable to species level. Sami has a great big, anatomically correct Glanville Fritillary tattoo. Even the underwing patterning is accurate!

So it was a good programme but somewhat disjointed, kinda flicking from one theme to another without a whole lot of cohesion. As several folk have already stated, it was a fantastic opportunity to flag up an important message which somehow wasn't really delivered very well. But much better than nothing and it brought back wonderful memories of some of the places we've been to this year. Plus I've gotta try the Purple Emperor luring trick for myself next season.

Cheers

Gibster.

[Neil Jones]

Felix:

Indeed. There's a lot of it about.

Neil Jones:

What do you mean?

Maybe Felix could have made things clearer by emphasising the it: "There's a lot of IT about"

Jack

I am sorry I still don't understand unambigiously what is meant.

[Paul Wetton]

Seth

Plus I've gotta try the Purple Emperor luring trick for myself next season.

Get yourself a nicely soaked fox turd it works much better. Horse manure is pretty good also. One chap got a Black Emperor (lacking any white) sat on horse muck at Fermyn Woods last year. I missed it by 20 minutes. I was watching the same manure.

[Piers]

I am sorry I still don't understand unambigiously what is meant.

It means unequivocally; leaving no doubt; clearly; certainly etc. etc.

Hope this helps.

[Lee Hurrell]

I enjoyed the programme, particularly the natural footage of butterflies in flight and time lapse shots. Stunning.

I do agree that conservation may have been featured more than it was but BC was mentioned and the script repeatedly mentioned the decline in our native species.

Clearly the show was aimed at folks other than those using this forum. However, if it starts an interest in butterflies, (that leads to concern for conservation), for only a handful of people, young or old, then it was worthwhile viewing.

Also, do have a look at the BBC page for the show as it features loads of links to other clips of BBC butterfly films and some really good ones at that. It has a few links to this site!

Replay here for those that missed it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00wwbm4

Cheers,

- Pete

Cheers

Lee

[Gibster]

Neil Jones wrote:I am sorry I still don't understand unambigiously what is meant.


It means unequivocally; leaving no doubt; clearly; certainly etc. etc.

Hope this helps.

Hahahaha... now I know why you're called Felix!!!

(All in jest, chaps!)

Gibster.

[Annie]

I enjoyed the program, I agree with those who thought the tattoo and artwork segments felt a bit "tacked-on".

I shall probably watch it again on iPlayer and just skip through the bits that didn't appeal so much.

[Neil Jones]

I enjoyed the programme, particularly the natural footage of butterflies in flight and time lapse shots. Stunning.

I do agree that conservation may have been featured more than it was but BC was mentioned and the script repeatedly mentioned the decline in our native species.

Actually it didn't really mention BC at all there is a single mention, as far as I can tell, just after 7 minutes in and it is unclear
that an organisation exists. In the subtitles is "work that I do for butterfly conservation" uncapitalised.

[Matsukaze]

This is one of the real problems I had with this. This was not covered properly at all. In fact the narration was continuously full of falsehoods. They kept saying and implying that this works. Now we have some pretty good data on this (Oates, M. R. & Warren M. S. (1990). A review of Butterfly introductions in Britain and Ireland. World Wide Fund for Nature, Goldaming, UK.) and we know that in most cases IT DOES NOT WORK!.

If memory serves, this was the data set that appeared in Roger Dennis' book on the ecology of British butterflies. The data needs to be put in the context of the time at which it was written; most of the releases referred to were pre-Jeremy Thomas and the scientific analysis of butterflies' habitat requirements, and involved little more than releasing butterflies onto sites from which they had usually recently disappeared. It would be interesting to see a similar analysis of introductions carried out since 1990 - I would expect rather different results, especially if the analysis was confined to "official" releases.

[Jack Harrison]

Let's get to the nub of the matter.

Who is Martin White?

Jack