Matthew Oates on TV tonight (25/10/10).

[Pawpawsaurus]

Since nobody else seems to have mentioned it, I thought I'd chip in.

Matthew Oates made a brief appearance this evening on ITV1's 'Wild Britain with Ray Mears', watching butterflies in a Somerset hay meadow.

The programme is available online here:
http://www.itv.com/itvplayer/video/?Filter=183217
and this particular sequence begins around 12 minutes into the programme. Unfortunately, it seems that the half-time commercials can't be skipped. :(

Paul

[Paul Wetton]

From one Paul to another.

Thanks for posting the link. I enjoyed watching the progam. Shame the House Martins turned magically into Swifts when they took to flight but all in all a great short program.

Cheers

Paul

[Michaeljf]

I saw the programme by accident. Although it's always nice to see butterflies getting TV coverage, I was slightly bemused by Matthew (in a shirt that must have been designed purely for radio) stating we had '59 resident species'. I thought that Red Admirals, Painted Ladies, Clouded Yellows etc were regarded as non-resident based on their migratory nature. Oh well. I am easily confused.
Michael

[Pete Eeles]

Hi Michael - I think you're right - although:

a) Clouded Yellow and Red Admiral have overwintered successfully.

b) Matthew was possibly phrasing his words carefully for Joe Public - and mentioning "frequent migrants" might have been confusing, given the point he was making.

But I agree with Painted Lady - I don't believe there's any evidence that it's successfully overwintered (despite some being seen early this year - there's no way of telling if they were fresh immigrants, I believe!).

Cheers,

- Pete

[David M]

I was a bit disappointed with the actual butterflies they selected to appear. The Small Tortoiseshell was dog-eared and the Blue was as bedraggled a specimen as I've ever seen.

[Michaeljf]

David,
I'd forgotten about that blue. It hardly had any wings left eh? They would have seen more butterflies in my garden, but maybe that wasn't the point of the report!

Pete - thanks for that. Glad I wasn't going mad. Though it does beg the question, at what point does a previously migratory species become resident? i.e. after ten pupea make it through the winter for a period of, say, five years?
Michael

[Piers]

But I agree with Painted Lady - I don't believe there's any evidence that it's successfully overwintered (despite some being seen early this year - there's no way of telling if they were fresh immigrants, I believe!).
Pete

This was raised on one of the 2009 Painted Lady threads - there has been evidence of this species over wintering, a marked individual in Cornwall I believe. I shall have to dig out my post...

Felix.

[Piers]

...found it:

The first (I think this is the first) proof positive of Painted Lady successfully over wintering in this country was an individual marked with a permanent marker pen in October 1997 at Hayle in Cornwall. This same butterfly was observed again in April 1998 following a mild Winter (although with some nights dropping to -2 degC locally). The individual was last seen in the locality on May 19th that year.

Felix.

I am not sure if anyone undertook to perform any similar experiments in Autumn '09.

Felix.

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks Piers. Not sure this is proof-positive that we would consider Painted Lady as a resident though - which seems to be a rather subjective status at best!

Cheers,


- Pete

[Piers]

Thanks Piers. Not sure this is proof-positive that we would consider Painted Lady as a resident though - which seems to be a rather subjective status at best!

Indeed. Certainly not a resident species. Not even a transitory resident. Yet.

[Padfield]

I think it's very interesting that the occasional painted lady surives the winter in the UK, but I'm sure Felix didn't mean to imply the species has or even might have residency status. Residency is surely only meaningfully defined in terms of populations, not individuals.

The problem for the painted lady, as I understand it, is that it is naturally continuously brooded and lacks the ability to enter true hibernation. Thus, while conditions might occasionally allow it to survive a winter, any prolonged period without reproductive opportunities is likely to crush a population.

In the quasi Mediterranean climate of the Rhône Valley, here in Switzerland, I've found clouded yellows, red admirals and Queens of Spain in January, but never glimpsed a painted lady before the annual immigration, usually in May.

Guy

[Piers]

The problem for the painted lady, as I understand it, is that it is naturally continuously brooded and lacks the ability to enter true hibernation.

Much like the Red Admiral, which seems to be occasionally able to survive through mild Winters in England; periodically awakening and feeding on late flowering plants (mahonia in my garden) and basking in the tepid Winter sunshine. This species is also continually brooded and early stages have been observed developing (at a significantly slow rate) in this country throughout the Winter months.

This species fits the definition of 'transitory resident' rather well.

Felix.

[Lee Hurrell]

[quote="Felix] Much like the Red Admiral, which seems to be occasionally able to survive through mild Winters in England
This species fits the definition of 'transitory resident' rather well. Felix.[/quote]

Hi Felix,

I seem to remember a similar conversation about Red Admirals over the last year or so. As I understand it (from this site in fact), Red Admirals can't (or don't) hibernate in the same way that Commas and Peacocks do, which explains why we are still seeing them now and will do on warm winter days.

However, are they not considered a resident species now? The first butterflies I saw this year were 2 Red Admirals (mid March, when we finally reached 15 degrees) and last winter was not mild by any means! These 2 could not have been immigrants could they?

I understand there is still a transitory element to their population, I guess much in the same was as the Large White, whose numbers are bolstered by immigration each year, but I would consider the Red Admiral a resident species.

Of course it may be that overwintering is not natural to the Red Admiral if you consider populations from warmer climes, but perhaps they are better adapted to trying it, perhaps we do have a resident population that has adapted to doing it or perhaps they are just less likely to migrate out again like the Painted Lady.

The Painted Lady I would consider wholly transitory as the overwintering seems much much less frequent, if not abnormnal in the UK.

Cheers

Lee

[Padfield]

A minimal definition of transient residency would involve overwintering individuals producing a generation the following spring (or early stages, bred here, surviving the winter and breeding the following year). From what I read, the numbers of red admirals regularly overwintering in the south of England are sufficient to meet this criterion.

The chances of a peculiarly British resident population adapting independently of the continental population are negligible during this relatively warm period when vast numbers of red admirals reach the islands every year. Any selection for hardy individuals over the winter would be diluted beyond significance by the influx of individuals from more southerly climes during the summer. There is more probability of local adaptation occurring if there were to be sudden cooling and a southerly retreat of the butterfly, resulting in more genetic isolation of any anomalously hardy individuals in our islands.

That doesn't rule out the possibility that on a larger geographic scale the species is shifting towards a more marked pattern of diapause. Unlike painted ladies, red admirals have cryptic underside colouration ideally suited to hibernating and they do successfully enter light hibernation in much of Europe.

I saw loads of red admirals today, as it happens! They weren't in very good condition, I have to say, and I doubt many of the ones I saw will be around in four months time...

Guy

[Lee Hurrell]

Good point about the influx of European stock Guy.

I'm a little confused about your first paragraph though....

A minimal definition of transient residency would involve overwintering individuals producing a generation the following spring (or early stages, bred here, surviving the winter and breeding the following year). From what I read, the numbers of red admirals regularly overwintering in the south of England are sufficient to meet this criterion.

Doesn't that meet the same criterion needed to be considered a resident?

Cheers

Lee

[Padfield]

Doesn't that meet the same criterion needed to be considered a resident?

Not necessarily. For a population to be properly resident (by a completely arbitrary definition which I have just invented ) you would need successive years' overwinterers to include the offspring of previous years' overwinterers - so there is at least a small pool of continuity. If, of the tens of thousands of red admirals in the south of England during the summer, just a few survive the winter to breed the next year, there is no guarantee of this continuity. In that case I would have difficulty saying there was a resident population.

Guy

[millerd]

I've just had a look at the BC Sussex Branch sightings page for Jan/Feb this year. The first Red Admiral was seen on 17th January, and there were several more in February. Interestingly, the Hampshire Branch page mirrors this exactly. One was observed apparently hibernating in a rabbit hole. Given the harsh winter across Europe, these must surely all have originated in the UK, and tucked away snugly somewhere as well.

On the other hand, Jeremy Thomas in "The Butterflies of Britain and Ireland" declares Red Admiral hibernation to be "...another myth" (p.176).

Is this just the semantic distinction between the strict definitions of "hibernation" and "overwintering"?

Dave

[Lee Hurrell]

Not necessarily. For a population to be properly resident (by a completely arbitrary definition which I have just invented ) you would need successive years' overwinterers to include the offspring of previous years' overwinterers - so there is at least a small pool of continuity. If, of the tens of thousands of red admirals in the south of England during the summer, just a few survive the winter to breed the next year, there is no guarantee of this continuity. In that case I would have difficulty saying there was a resident population. Guy

So in that case, rather than a resident species, would it be more apt to call the Red Admiral a migratory species that by coincidence is able to overwinter?

Or I suppose, in other words transitory (As in Felix had it right in the first place?)

However two last points......

1) Granted I have nothing to base this on, but there must be some Red Admirals that live, overwinter, breed and die here, without migrating south.

2) UKB page for atalanta: "This butterfly is primarily a migrant to our shores, although sightings of individuals and immature stages in the first few months of the year, especially in the south of England, mean that this butterfly is now considered resident."

Cheers

Lee

[Pete Eeles]

Of course, this all comes down to definitions, many of which have been hinted at in this thread with respect to a SPECIES (and not an individual):

1. "Resident"

2. "Transient resident"

3. "Migrant"

Without a definition, this thread is going nowhere

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

On the other hand, Jeremy Thomas in "The Butterflies of Britain and Ireland" declares Red Admiral hibernation to be "...another myth"

Hmmm. Jeremy T. also implies that White Letter Hairstreak need flowering elm for a population to survive.
Studies from as far back as the mid '80's have shown this clearly not to be the case.

As a very well respected (and well known) lepidopterist friend of mine put it: The comment I'm most frequently hearing on the new JAT book is that people find something to disagree with strongly on every page (Large Blue apart of course).

Felix.