Using nets in Spain

[David M]

Yes, but it was what someone else advised you to do. I would of put up the " Go use a net & don't be bullied by anyone " with the proper quotes, Lee3764 wrote, but the flippin programme won't let you go that far back in a thread.

Copy and paste?

[Gruditch]

[quote="lee3764"]Go use a net & don't be bullied by anyone.

There happy now, I found if you press quote, before you bring up the reply browser you can add it. kind of

Regards Gruditch

[David M]

Go use a net & don't be bullied by anyone.

There happy now, I found if you press quote, before you bring up the reply browser you can add it. kind of

Regards Gruditch

That's better! Nowt worse than a good spleen venting only to find it was a case of mistaken identity.

[Gruditch]

BTW, I find that you have more chance of mistaking a first brood Brown Argus in flight, with a Grizzled Skipper. But only for a second or two. Brown Argus also never fly for that long, so you can usually get that close up view should you need it.

Regards Gruditch

[David M]

BTW, I find that you have more chance of mistaking a first brood Brown Argus in flight, with a Grizzled Skipper. But only for a second or two. Brown Argus also never fly for that long, so you can usually get that close up view should you need it.

Now you're really confusing me.

I saw Grizzled Skippers last month for the first time and knew straight away that it wasn't a Lycaenid (mind you, having not seen a Brown Argus for 20 years I can't remember what one looks like when in flight).

I got briefly in a pickle last weekend when I saw a Mother Shipton - thought for a moment that could have been a GS too till it settled.

Just as an aside, Gruditch, are you as clued up on moths as you are on butterflies? I've never seen so many day flying species as I have over the last month here. Is the SW of the country a good place for moths as I don't remember anything like this number up North.

[lee3764]

BTW, I find that you have more chance of mistaking a first brood Brown Argus in flight, with a Grizzled Skipper. But only for a second or two. Brown Argus also never fly for that long, so you can usually get that close up view should you need it.

Now you're really confusing me.

I saw Grizzled Skippers last month for the first time and knew straight away that it wasn't a Lycaenid (mind you, having not seen a Brown Argus for 20 years I can't remember what one looks like when in flight).

I got briefly in a pickle last weekend when I saw a Mother Shipton - thought for a moment that could have been a GS too till it settled.

Just as an aside, Gruditch, are you as clued up on moths as you are on butterflies? I've never seen so many day flying species as I have over the last month here. Is the SW of the country a good place for moths as I don't remember anything like this number up North.

If you have seen so many day flying moths in the last month then that is the perfect time to get the net out and use it to capture (mmmmmmm..........nasty word for some!!) the moth & then pop it in a pill box so you can then identify it hopefully. Remember to release the moth where you found it which may help minimise the chance of preditation by birds & it's foodplant should be there still. You will more likely to be able to identify that moth than those who want to complete their transect or get that perfect photo whilst also possibly dodging the verbal abuse that's possible from the anti net brigade!!!
As i've said previously; the anti net brigade are dividing all of us lepidopterists & entomologists who wish to enjoy our hobby! I wonder if fisherman have a pop at each other just because some take different equipment to lakes & rivers than others?
Personally I should say that I've never confused a Brown Argus with a Grizzled Skipper whilst in the field with my net or without it. I hope David re-discovers the Brown Argus in his home vicinity & if his net helps him then so be it! He's hardly catching Large Blues is he?! There is no law against simply netting non fully protected species. Too much political correctness in this day & age against sensible use of nets. Blimey.......it does cause some bitterness for the anti net people doesn't it? I'd be interested to learn if somone with a net has picked on a stranger who is obviously looking for butterflies/moths or other insects in the field who's not carrying a net? Presumably not; so why on earth the other way around?
Thanks to those who've PM'd me with comments of support for my stance.
The invitation is still open to those who may wish to attend one of our fieldtrips here in Cornwall. try our website............ www.cornwall-butterfly-conservation.org.uk
Hope to see you there and you will see that we are NOT a judgemental lot but really quite friendly & I think knowledgeable.
Kindest regards to all & one whether you use a net on occasions or not.
Lee (Cornwall).

[Gruditch]

Now you're really confusing me.

I saw Grizzled Skippers last month for the first time and knew straight away that it wasn't a Lycaenid (mind you, having not seen a Brown Argus for 20 years I can't remember what one looks like when in flight).

I got briefly in a pickle last weekend when I saw a Mother Shipton - thought for a moment that could have been a GS too till it settled.

Just as an aside, Gruditch, are you as clued up on moths as you are on butterflies? I've never seen so many day flying species as I have over the last month here. Is the SW of the country a good place for moths as I don't remember anything like this number up North.

What I'm trying to say is that a Brown Argus looks very different from a Common Blue in flight. For the fist week of the flight period, you will probably only have Male Common Blue, and some very territorial Male Brown Argus around. Should make it easier for ID.

Moths, no, I know most of the day flying Macro Moths that I'm liable to come across when out, but that's it.

Regards Gruditch

[Padfield]

My last word on the matter, so we don't bogged down in repetition!

I respect Lee's position, but I think his advice is bad advice. The net is a tool for specialists - county recorders, group leaders, professional scientists &c. A proliferation of nets among general naturalists and amateurs would be highly unwelcome in my opinion and I think the opinion of many others on these forums. The net is a totally inappropriate and unnecessary tool for learning how to identify butterflies. There are no difficult resident UK species - end of story. Identification is a complete red herring here. Brown argus has figured highly in these discussions. I grew up in East Suffolk, before the days of the brown argus's expansion, and did not see it at all during my childhood. But as soon as I did see one, I knew it. Without wishing to offend anyone, it's a trivial ID. Personally, I would happily curb the enthusiasm of youngsters who thought the way to practise natural history was to go around the place netting and trapping and 'studying' - that is absolutely not the kind of enthusiasm I want to encourage. Butterflies are not objects of scientific curiosity except for the scientific community (whose excesses frequently sadden me, I must say) - they are beautiful, free creatures. We learn most from them when we watch them with awe and wonder.

Tell a child that butterflies are free. Tell him or her to watch them with patience, and observe their habits, learn from their simple yet industrious lives. Such a child will never need a net and will grow up, like me, comfortably identifying everything he or she sees. More importantly, the child will learn respect. Maybe later he or she will become a scientist, wielding a net, but at least the respect will be there first.

Dave M, you quite simply don't need a net. It won't help. It will just make the countryside a slightly uglier place.

Perhaps there will be a forceful response from Lee, differing wildly with what I've said! That's fine - we disagree - it's the sign of a healthy debate. I don't doubt Lee shares my respect and wonder for nature (in fact, he obviously does). I will never accost him in the field if I meet him carrying a net! But as a general policy, I would prefer to encourage net-free butterflying, in the UK at least.

Guy

[Piers]

With the greatest of possible respect Guy (which hopefully goes withpout saying) you do position yourself at one extreme of the spectrum and you must know this in your heart. Most people will swat a 'cleg' which is biting the hell out of their arm without thinking; but I know that your philosophy regarding the sanctity of life does not allow you to take this action. Perhaps Lee and others are at the other end. Somewhere in the middle is surely a happy medium that would be broadly acceptable to all.

Interestingly, here are the thoughts of Sir David Attenborough (I did put this up before but it was lost in a flurry of posts)...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... rough.html

Felix.

[lee3764]

With the greatest of possible respect Guy (which hopefully goes withpout saying) you do position yourself at one extreme of the spectrum and you must know this in your heart. Most people will swat a 'cleg' which is biting the hell out of their arm without thinking; but I know that your philosophy regarding the sanctity of life does not allow you to take this action. Perhaps Lee and others are at the other end. Somewhere in the middle is surely a happy medium that would be broadly acceptable to all.

Interestingly, here are the thoughts of Sir David Attenborough (I did put this up before but it was lost in a flurry of posts)...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... rough.html

Felix.

Very good article by Sir David & thanks for putting it on here Felix. It seems happy medium will never be acceptable to some. I DO respect wildlife & especially butterflies and respect them and carry a net. Problem??....Not in my mind.
Lee.

[Matsukaze]

Thanks for the thoughts! I don't use a net myself - but my colleagues use them for ID purposes and, without which, our tally would be nothing like the number we eventually reach. More importantly, the information is valuable and is always passed on to the relevant authority once we've sorted the IDs out.

RIght - off to the airport now (flying in the morning). I might get a chance to post updates while in Spain but, if not, you know why!

Cheers,

- Pete

Getting back to the original topic, has anyone heard from Pete lately?

[Pete Eeles]

I have

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3977&start=60

Didn't come across a single individual was that the least bothered about nets. Then again, we didn't come across a single individual at the sites we visited

Thx for the thoughts all - interesting debate has clearly unfolded while I've been away. I agree with Felix - being at one end of the spectrum is rarely the right place to be IMHO, while respecting local "rules" and, ahem, any laws

Cheers,

- Pete

[Dave McCormick]

Very good article by Sir David & thanks for putting it on here Felix. It seems happy medium will never be acceptable to some. I DO respect wildlife & especially butterflies and respect them and carry a net. Problem??....Not in my mind.
Lee.

Well although I agree with you here, if the laws were changed, I would see some people taking advantage of it possibly and making once common plant or insect rarer by being allowed to collect them. If people understood how to go about things then this wouldn't happen. I still go about as I did when I was a child, if I see caterpillars in an area I can come back to again, I might take some home to rear (I'd return adults to the area again if the habitat was still going to be fine) and I have collected some plants before...actually I didn't take any plants, I took some seeds from the plants and grew them myself (the plant stays where it is and continues to thrive, plus you get an understanding of the plant better this way if your able to grow it yourself), at times I still do this with getting a few seeds (I only take a few).

last thing I grew was a selfheal from seeds I obtained from a single plant, but I grew it indoors and it never grew any flowers, it grew outwards like a ground trailing vine with many, many dark green small leaves. After a year I put it outside and it didn't do well, suppose it got used to the indoor conditions...now I learned something that way. You can get seeds from wild plants from here: http://www.nickys-nursery.co.uk/seeds/pages/wild.htm no need really to collect any from wild, pus you get lods more seeds from there anyway, if you have the space and contitions, best way to learn about them.

[Steve Babbs]

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

I wonder if this is true en España?

Cheers,

- Pete

Spanish wildlife laws appear to be pretty strictly enforced. Myself and some friends got in trouble using a Longworth trap, for small mammals, without a license. We weren't charged, but we wasted a lot of time and had all our details taken by the police. I'm definitely of the opinion that there's rarely a case for nets in Britain. More due to the better close focus abilities of modern binoculars than due developments in photography. But elsewhere in Europe is can be very difficult without one.

Steve

http://www.freewebs.com/stevebabbs/