Large Copper?

[Pete Eeles]

Just for the record - I'll stick my neck out and say that I agree with dissection by the right people under the right circumstances. These last 2 qualifications are important. And - I completely disagree, as does everyone who has posted in this thread as far as I can tell, with the taking of any specimens under any other circumstances.

Also for the record, BC also endorse this view too - otherwise they wouldn't run workshops like this:

http://www.butterfly-conservation.org/e ... talia.html

As for the Observer's guide mentioned by Felix ...

Cheers,

- Pete

[Piers]

That's very interesting Pete. It's good to know that BC run these sort of workshops, especially on the back of the 'Moths Count' initiative.

It would be a valuable workshop for Butterfly Conservation to run 'down south', I'm sure there would be a lot of 'serious amateurs' who would be very interested to go along and learn more about these ID techniques.

Felix.

[Dave]

Hi Pete, thanks for that I'm sure there are a lot of serious amateurs who no longer wish to have anything to do with B.C.

The Obsever's Book of Insect Genitalia. A very useful title.

What a card - I bet the cold winter nights just fly by in your house

[Pete Eeles]

Hi Pete, thanks for that I'm sure there are a lot of serious amateurs who no longer wish to have anything to do with B.C.

And the rest want to conserve butterflies, moths and their habitats.

I know this sounds contradictory - but that's how I see it - a necessary evil. And I've yet to meet anyone who takes pleasure in dissecting the very creatures they love - they just realise that this is something that, under the right circumstances, needs to be done for the greater good. And, if this needs to be done, then I'd rather it is done expertly (hence the workshops).

Cheers,

- Pete

[Dave]

that, under the right circumstances, needs to be done for the greater good.

Ok well that's your opinion. I personally don't believe that it does any good whatsoever. If you could provide me details of a single instance where identifying a moth by dissection has made any difference whatsoever to anything in the entire world ever (other than going on a list) then I'll happily shut up.

To the one or two people who may be still following this I do apologise I'm boring myself now

[Piers]

Hi Dave,

In response to your post a good example could be the newly recognised British plume moth Emmelina argoteles:

This species was first discovered in Britain at Wicken Fen in 2005, and in August 2006 it was confirmed as a breeding species.

E. argoteles has external charactaristics that greatly resemble it's close relatives E. monodactyla and E. argoteles. Only through examination of the genitalia can the species be accurately and confidently separated. Hence the fact that the species has remained undiscovered in Britain.

The global distribution of this species is highly localised, and the life history, habitat requirements, and conservation needs of this species are poorly understood, however they are known to be very specific, and site management in part of Wicken Fen is already being adapted to ensure this species survival.

As a direct result of being able to identify this species, we are now able to act upon it's conservation, to hopefully ensure that a species new to Britain can be conserved for all. In addition to this; results of research on the Wicken Fen population could well contribute to the continued survival of this species in other countries also. There are massive gaps in our knowledge concerning this species requirements and why global distribution is so greatly limited; however, research is continuing that aims to fill these gaps and secure the future of this species.

Ok, it could be argued that if man didn't exist, this species perhaps wouldn't have a problem, but man does exist and it is our responsibility to try to conserve threatened species in this world that we are gradually damaging, and if first we need to be able to differentiate one species from another in order to ensure their survival well then that's what has to be done.

Felix.

[Dave]

Thanks for that. That's really interesting and I can now see why some people believe it to be of use.
As promised I'll now shut up.

[Danny]

Felix wrote:

"The Obsever's Book of Insect Genitalia. A very useful title.

I must have missed that one... "

Somehow under the circumstances (Circumcisions?) I think it's best not to get me started on the subject of Genitalia young Felix. Last time I did everybody threw stones at me and accused me of being juvenile.

The observers book had a section devoted to mercilessly killing and mounting up butterflies, my dad actually manufactured mounting boards (can't believe I actually did this btw...I'm really sorry..I was only ten..forgive me) and you had to prise the wings open with pins with kind of tracing paper holding them down..until they dried out. I suppose that's how they discovered various things regarding info about what species were in the UK yonks ago..(the thingy fritillary..begins with an A...er...can't remember...)..and didn't they discover that Wood White was in fact Real's wood white through looking at past collections? (He cries - in a vague attempt to save himself from yet another stoning)

...meanwhile Real's Wood White and genitalia??? (snigger)

Danny

[Danny]

"Ok, it could be argued that if man didn't exist, this species perhaps wouldn't have a problem, but man does exist and it is our responsibility to try to conserve threatened species in this world that we are gradually damaging, and if first we need to be able to differentiate one species from another in order to ensure their survival well then that's what has to be done.

Felix."

Also I've found that the Small Skipper tastes a bit nuttier than the Essex. Best way to tell them apart I've found.

Danny

[Danny]

"I'm trying not to laugh but that is pretty funny Mr D. "

I do my best young Felix...attempting raise a smile in my dowdy QueenofSpainless grey universe, void of colour. Maybe there's a monarch on the horizon..actually I saw a Monarch in Florida this year..does it count?

Danny

[Dave McCormick]

that, under the right circumstances, needs to be done for the greater good.

The only way I would find this OK, is when this is present, you have the right people and you have proof that taking one specimin won't harm its population in an area and for moths, the only way I'd find this ok is if I got quite a few (probably 10+) of that moth in a trap in one night, then taking one for ID would not do that much, but only finding one or two, I'd go against taking any because you don't then know if taking that one could effect the population and if it did, then your work may have been in vain, finding what the species is, only to find you caused it to disappear from that area, whereas not knowing, it could have been better of or something.

I do my best young Felix...attempting raise a smile in my dowdy QueenofSpainless grey universe, void of colour. Maybe there's a monarch on the horizon..actually I saw a Monarch in Florida this year..does it count?

Don't worry too much Danny, you did get to see a lot of butterfly species this year, more so than alot of us, especially when you went to Florida and if things hold out, the QoS may survive and be present next year, we all can hope. But maybe you'll find one before its too late. At least you have the chance to get to be in the area its found, even if you didn't see it, me being where I am, I can't do that.

[doggie]

Can't believe this was 11 years ago!

Anyway, I eventually identified what I saw as probably a Silver-washed fritillary (Argynnis paphia).

This year however I captive bred some large coppers. I only managed two adults, but they are a male and a female, so finger's crossed.