Large Copper at Carr Vale, Derbyshire

[sidwemn]

The Rare Bird Alert Pager system is reporting several Large Copper at Carr Vale NR near Bolsover in Derbyshire at the moment.

Could anyone clarify what the status of Large Copper is in the UK? I assume these are the result of a re-introduction of some sort, either official or otherwise.

If anyone has details of where to look at Carr Vale I'd be interested. I might go and see them regardless of status anyway - there not too far away.

Thanks

Martyn

[Pete Eeles]

Almost certainly an unauthorised release. The first attempt would, I would imagine, be in the Norfolk fens. I suspect that this is either a professional or amateur breeder releasing their unwanted livestock.

Cheers,

- Pete

[alex mclennan]

Does anyone have any more information on these large coppers, please???
Alex

[rdunn162]

On RBA it says "10+ Large Copper butterflies still Bolsover at Carr Vale NR at 4pm. Follow track beyond mound to nature reserve sign + pool to view"

[alex mclennan]

Richard
I'm extremely grateful. Alex

[david king]

There are photos and some more discussion at
http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=66539
david

[alex mclennan]

David
Thank you. It's quite intriguing that there is such a detailed and informed butterfly discussion going on on a 'bird' site!! Mention is made there of the Woodwalton Fen reintroduction attempt. I believe that was abandoned as long ago as 1999. I think that there can be little doubt that this is an unauthorised, misguided and indeed illagal release of a very attractive butterfly.
Alex

[david king]

Are there standards by which introduced species are deemed "tickable" to use birding language? The British list (of birds) excludes species which are non self-sustaining introductions or escapes - termed category E birds. It would seem that Large Copper would fall in the equivalent butterfly category (in the 20th and 21st centuries) as their populations have not been self sustaining. Similarly, are Large Blues considered to be self-sustaining?
david

[Pete Eeles]

Hi David,

I suspect this is a highly subjective area, based on conversations I've had over the years. For some, any sighting represents a "tick" - including reintroductions. For others, that would be heresy!

But there are several reintroductions that are self-sustaining. For example, Heath Fritillary in Thrift Wood, or Large Blue (at various sites, to the point that the colony at Green Down has been used to recolonise other European sites).

The problem is knowing how far to stretch this! For example, the colony of Black Hairstreak at Monk's Wood in Cambridge, which was repopulated after the 2nd world war, is actually a reintroduction from a population that was originally removed from the wood!

I believe that the Large Copper is in the grey area between being self-sustaining and not. It survived for many years at Woodwalton Fen, but eventually disappeared.

My 2p.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Pete Eeles]

Oops! To answer the actual question ... *no*, this release of Large Copper *would not* constitute a "tick" in my book.

Cheers,

- Pete

[alex mclennan]

Pete, David
I stand to be corrected but isn't large copper a non migratory species which became extinct in England in the 19th century not to be seen again apart from the unsuccessful Woodwalton experiment. So a bunch of them that suddenly turn up in Derbyshire are certainly NOT tickable!!!
Alex

[Pete Eeles]

Correct. But if the reintroduction at Woodwalton Fen had been successful, and they managed to expand their range, would that count? Don't know!

Anyway - the Derbyshire individuals aren't tickable in my book!

In fact, the British Large Copper was the subspecies dispar (Lycaena dispar dispar) which was an endemic subspecies - now lost forevermore

- Pete

[alex mclennan]

Whilst I appreciate that these butterflies have absolutely no credentials and I condemn the actions of the individual who released them, I nevertheless went to Carr Vale this morning. I saw about a dozen of them, evenly split male and female. For what they are worth, I took these pics. The butterflies may be very 'iffy' but they are still very beautiful.

[markhows]

Are they still there as I will be passing there at the weekend and will pop in, also where to look for them

Thanks

Mark

[alex mclennan]

Mark
They looked in excellent condition with a fair bit of life in them yet!! They are apparently very sedentary having stayed in the same place throughout and they are closely grouped. Once you reach the reserve find the sewage works (it's not difficult!) and they are on the lake side close by.
Alex

[Mike]

Another dozen of the large coppers have been released at Peter Fidler Reserve (adjacent to Carr Vale) this morning, just inside the gate that's nearest the sewage works.

They are being relased by a local breeder who has also been planting water dock on Carr Vale, or so I have been told.

[eccles]

In the Butterfly Conservation website there's talk of reintroduction attempts underway in and around Cambridgeshire and the Norfolk Broads. But there's nothing mentioned about Derbyshire, although I wonder about the planting of water dock. Are the people who run the reserves managing this attempt, I wonder?

[Martin]

Tickable/not tickable? Who cares? They're beautiful and I wish I could go and see them!

Martin.

[Wayne]

Well lets hope that they are doing everything properly and also that it goes successfully.

They are a lovely butterfly, I'd like to photograph them without having to travel abroad.

[Mike]

They ARE a lovely butterfly, but I don't think they will be successful in Bolsover.

The managers of the sites have not been involved in their introduction. I'm sure it has been carried out without their knowledge or consent.

Mike