Taking Purple Emperors.

[Susie]

Cheers, Neil, will do.

I sent a few emails yesterday and already have had one response from the Parish Council. Good job I did cos it appears that the master tree and surrounding area is for the chop next in January!

I'm not letting anyone do that to MY brown hairstreaks!

[Cotswold Cockney]

Surely the net would hurt it?

Netting with a professional net is probably less harmful overall than chasing a butterfly over fragile habitat. It does the butterfly no harm and allows close examination. Here is a large blue quite happy to sit around on my thumb after being netted and examined:



I let it go immediately. With some groups (Mellicta, Pyrgus, Erebia) netting may be the only way of getting an accurate picture of which species fly in an area. I have identified exactly two Piedmont ringlets in my local region, both of which were cruising past and only identified by netting.

Guy

Hmmmm .... that looks like M.arion obscura ~ maybe not now ~ my memorised names are all over 30 years now and could well be long since changed or updated.

I saw that species in good numbers back in July~Aug 1981 in the superb Alpine Meadows high above Zermatt ~ I do hope those superb habitats are still in good shape and not destroyed or harmfully changed in the ever demanding interests of the tourists industries, mostly aimed at winter sports in those superb mountain areas.

Sadly, too many UK Butterfly enthusiasts have a too narrowly focussed outlook on this subject. For numerous reasons they really need to widen their outlook. Even here in the UK where we have a relative paucity of species, several can only be certainly identified by capture~identify~release. In fact, that applies to quite a large proportion of the paucity of species we have here. Imagine what it is like in some parts of the world where twenty species of 'Blues' or, 'Mountain Ringlets' can be on the wing in the same place and at the same time. No chance of a positive ID unless.....

If I so chose, I have the skills to say remove 5 or 6 ova of the Purple Emperor ( Apatura iris ~ which is NOT a rare butterfly in the UK ~ but, despite it's high flyer reputation, keeps a relatively 'low profile' so is easily overlooked in many of its localities even by experienced observers) from a woodland and raise those through to adults the following season. Lets say of those only two are females. By pairing them in captivity ( have done this on numerous occasions including a dozen plus other world species of closely related Apaturinae ) and with good husbandry, each female could easily lay up to 500 fertile ova ~ 2nd pairings are possible to ensure continuing fertility ~ and again with good husbandry, most of those could be raised through to adults the following season. A few of each sex could be returned to their original habitat, the rest sold off as specimens to collectors who want them with virtually no measurable harm done to both species and habitat. A collector with a series of perfect bred specimens could mean less chance of wild ones being taken in numbers ~ wild caught specimens are rarely good enough for the discerning butterfly collector enthusiast. Do not forget also, many hunters, collectors, shooters etc have been very instrumental in setting up and establishing viable Nature Reserves. Probably moreso than your average 'tree hugger' although I am guilty of planting many trees with larval foodplants in mind ~ I'm a very enthusiastic tree enthusiast too .... .... I have a few dozen fine living specimens of my own .... mature trees that is ... which support several species of butterfly and moth......

However, now consider the vast amount of work necessary to achieve that Purple Emperor breeding operation successfully. Impossible without much preparation and help ~ years of establishing sufficient growing foodplant for starters ~ and staff required for virtually 24/7/365 monitoring to ensure their well being throughout ~ to mention only two key elements. Holidays away would not be possible at any time ~ livestock left to their own devices will be depleted no matter what unless continual care and attention is devoted to them several times daily. So logistically, as a commercial or profit making proposition it is far from viable. The rewards simply do not justify the outlay of both time and effort.

However, it is possible to sell say numbers of the freshly laid ova in say one or two dozen batches to those who want them. Ova are less demanding of time and effort once they've been obtained. Years ago, well over twenty in fact, several wealthy landowners on discovering that their woodlands once contained this species, had managed their land and its use to again provide suitable habitat. The word got around and approached me to provide stocks for reintroductions. I was able to help on a relatively successful scale.

Having said all that, no doubt many will be of the opinion that captive bred live specimens are always less healthy and virile than wild ones. That is particularly so with those of strong academic backgrounds where there opinions are based on their own, or other academics' indifferent attempts at captive breeding. These invariably provide results showing weak stock ~ a very false impression but, one that persists in such circles and the word is spread which reinforces the myth. That poor result is not due to captive breeding but, poor husbandry and all the other failed considerations necessary to maintain healthy captive stocks. Most academics involved with butterflies I've met over the years, and I've met most of them, are VERY poor breeders of butterflies, even when entrusted with only a few. A larger number would be beyond them. It's not mutually exclusive, but somewhere close to that. So, they perpetuate the myth that captive stocks are not healthy. They are wrong for the various reasons already given as well as some others which may be the subject of another posting.

Consider also, if captive breeding of livestock was so unreliable, all those fine healthy strains and bloodlines of farm cattle, sheep, horses etc worldwide over many many generations would have expired long ago. It's about good husbandry and devotion.... there are no shortcuts.

I have no objection to anyone having a fine series of bred perfect Purple Emperors in their collection, provided they are bred from captive pairings. Indeed, I would encourage that in preference to harmful means of trying to collect, usually unsuccessfully or harmfully, their earlier stages from the wild. In many ways collectors are actually beneficial to the continuing well being of wildlife. Consider the fabulous huge 'Swallowtail/Birdwing' butterflies of certain Pacific islands. These are actually commercially bred to satisfy the worldwide collector market ~ they have no appeal to me but, the income helps to ensure their continuance in their very threatened fragile environments and habitats in areas of much poverty where flora and fauna are of little consequence for folks there to survive otherwise. ...

So, whilst you're trampling about trying to get that ideal image into your camera, consider what you've done to the plants and livestock under foot ... Yes, the camera can be more destructive than the net .... and did you notice you crushed those Meadow Pipits eggs underfoot when trying to get that perfect shot of the Adonis Blue in the Cotswolds ... probably not in the heat of the moment ..... you think it does not happen .... Oh yes it does ....

......

[Gruditch]

I think there is a big difference between someone unintentionally steeping on fauna and flora, and someone invading a private reserve, with the sole intention of capturing and killing butterflies, for the purpose of selling or displaying them.

These discussions on butterfly collecting, always seem to get sidetracked by how little impact collecting has on the general butterfly population. It's not about that, nor is it about someone with permission from the land owners doing a scientific capture and release program. It's about people taking butterflies from the UK countryside and pinning them to a board.

Is this practise acceptable . Imagine if you will that the October trip to Durlston CP wasn't rained off. There we are, Pete, Denise, Eccles, Roger, Chrisc1, mouse, Susie, Lisa, and myself, all searching for, and eventually finding a few Wall Browns. Then I out with a net, capture one of the little blighters, pop him in a jar, gas him, look up to the other and say, "he's going on my wall". Do you think I would get some beaming smiles, and a general thumbs up, I think not. It's the moral issue of whether it is acceptable to "kill and display" butterflies, not pheasants, not pigeon's, butterflies.

Cheers Gruditch

[Denise]

I agree with you Gary. It is morally WRONG to kill for pleasure, whatever the species.
I would have been horrified to witness you killing a Wall Brown to go on your wall, and probably we would have fallen out over it big time! Thank god your not like that.

I know a man in the west country who has a net, but uses it to educate others "in the field" and then releases the butterfly within 30 mins. I had my reservations about this until I saw him in action. No harm comes to the butterfly, and every one gets to see a certain species without all the trampling of habitat. He loves butterflies and would allow no harm to come to them. In fact when Eccles and I went to Chew Valley Lake (private land - access with a permit) earlier this year looking for Purple Hairstreak, he was there and demanded to see the permit. When he realized who we were, he was very helpful.

But back to the point, killing butterflies for pleasure is not acceptable.

Denise

[Charles Nicol]

I saw a suspicious character in Fermyn woods at the beginning of July.

He was with his girlfriend. I asked why he had a net...he said it was to catch moths.

I did not ask what was in the large plastic cool boxes

charles

[Susie]

"As you are probably aware the top of the hedge was cut by hand due to the difficulties in accessing the hedge, this in itself reduces the possible loss of eggs as it is not as damaging as a flail hedge cutter. We also only cut hedges in late autumn / winter to ensure conservation and maintain habitats. "

This is part of a response I got from the council regarding their cutting the blackthorn hedge where the brown hairstreaks lay. You should see what they left, it is just stumps in some places. I would hate to see what they would have done if they had had machinery to play with. Bless 'em, they haven't got a clue when it comes to brown hairstreaks. They are in for an education though!

[Pete Eeles]

"We also only cut hedges in late autumn / winter to ensure conservation and maintain habitats."

Yep - a very dangerous assumption indeed. I suspect they only think of nesting birds when they make statements like this.

Time for Buffy to act methinks

Cheers,

- Pete

[Neil Hulme]

Hi Susie,
I'm on the case and putting together a response to the Email you received at this very moment. Will copy you in.
Neil

[Susie]

I shall sleep soundly knowing that Kipper is on the case.

I shall PM you.

[Jack Harrison]

Pete said:

Be careful if you see someone acting suspiciously - just talk to them in a civilised manner.

I had an amusing experience a few months ago on a Park & Ride bus in Cambridge. A man suddenly stated talking very loudly and boringly on his mobile phone apparently intent on making sure everyone on the bus knew just how important his line of business was. Lots of rolled eyes from the other passengers and after a few minutes, I walked across to him and asked him in a hushed voice to talk more quietly as “the rest of us are not the least interested in your conversation”. He loudly informed me and the rest of the passengers that I was an “obnoxious gentleman” (not quite sure how you can be obnoxious AND a gentleman – a real oxymoron). He stormed off to the upper deck and peace and quiet was restored to the lower level with nods of approval from fellow passengers.

So you can be polite and win but I guess there are risks.

Jack

[Jack Harrison]

I can vividly recall the moment when I stopped catching, killing and pinning.

I was 12 or 13 years old (early 1950s) when I saw a pristine Red Admiral was sunning itself in the garden. Out came the net – but then I hesitated. The butterfly was beautiful and it suddenly struck me that this lovely creature had as much right to life as I did. OK, as a 12/13 year old, I probably didn’t have such a philosophical understanding, but I somehow KNEW that killing it was wrong. I ceased collecting from that moment.

Had I had killed and pinned it, that specimen would have long since been consigned to a dusty history. However, almost 60 years later, I can still “SEE” that lovely Red Admiral. That is a far better memory. That butterfly still “lives” in 2009.

Jack

[NickB]

... we might still have the Large Blue in the West Country and the Swallowtail at Wicken as original
populations rather than precarious re-establishments. .

I think that the draining of the Fens put paid to Swallowtails at Wicken, not collecting

[Cotswold Cockney]

... we might still have the Large Blue in the West Country and the Swallowtail at Wicken as original
populations rather than precarious re-establishments. .

I think that the draining of the Fens put paid to Swallowtails at Wicken, not collecting

You could well be on the right lines there. Correction you are most certainly.

In the 1960s and as recently as 1970, I found larvae*/ova of the Swallowtail wisespread in unkempt ditches, damp waste and overgrown neglected fields and marshy areas etc in some parts of Norfolk. Visiting those productive sites some ten or more years later revealed them all no longer present ~ all disappeared as a result of land improvements, tidying up, infills, drainage 'improvements', overgrown field clearances and various other forms of change. Totally unsuitable for any female Swallowtail's ova now.

I also found Swallowtail ova on Angelica Angelica sylvestris ( IIRC the nomenclature correctly ) as well as on its more normal Fenland foodplant, Milk Parsley ( Peucedanum palustre ~ again IIRC) Both distantly related members of the Umbelliferae ( ditto spelling/names)

Same old story ~ nothing lasts forever .... when man sticks his oar in.... nothing is safe ... even mankind itself .....

Could simply be a matter of time .....

* P.S. Whilst I was on Holiday with my then GF, later wife, in Austria in the summer of 1970, I chased Mountain Clouded Yellows, various Blues and Fritillaries ~ catching several examples with my bare hands ** ( totally unprepared ~ no net for that holiday ) ~ my GF had settled down at the shady edge of the Alpine meadow to write some postcards to send to friends back home. After a while, she interupted my activities ( annoyingly at that precise moment ) calling me over to her which I mistakenly thought was for me to also to write a few postcards.... I was wrong ~ very wrong ~ she had settled down next to an Umbellifer plant to write those cards. My wife being familiar with my breeding P.machaon on growing foodplant back home and so could easily recognise their larvae at any stage in their development, she had recognised a small second instar larva of this insect on the plant. I cut a sprig of the plant containing this larva, placing it in a plastic cup of water in our hotel. The larva thrived and on arrival back in the UK, produced a fine male sometime later.

** I am still able to do this even today without harm to the insects ~ A skill I acquired very early in life ~ certainly around age six or seven ~ maybe earlier ~ no money for nets and other stuff back in those post war impoverished times....doubt if they were even available then....

P.P.S.

Had a little Natural History highlight today ~ my wife spotted a very small bird in our garden and called me over thinking it was a Wren. Very small certainly but too small and agile for a Wren ~ it was a Goldcrest ~ UK's smallest bird ~ now that's something you do not see in your garden every day ...

[Jack Harrison]

Cotswold Cockney wrote:

I also found Swallowtail ova on Angelica Angelica sylvestris ( IIRC the nomenclature correctly ) as well as on its more normal Fenland foodplant, Milk Parsley ( Peucedanum palustre ~ again IIRC) Both distantly related members of the Umbelliferae (ditto spelling/names)

I remember you telling me that at the time John and I thought that was an excellent observation. And didn't you make a similar unexpected discovery about Black/W.L Hairstreaks? I think you said that you had found a presumed "Black Hairstreak" egg on sloe and subsequently to your surprise, you bred a White Letter from it - or was it the other way round (ie, Black H egg on elm?)

And another unexpected observation from the literature. Our Swallowtail larvae will apparently feed on the shrub Mexican Orange Blossom Choisya ternata - perhaps not quite so bizarre as it sounds as some tropical species of Swallowtail use Choisya naturally.

Jack

[NickB]

RE: Swallowtails at Wicken Fen in Cambs

There is some hope that the purchase of lands surrounding Wicken, the Great Fen project, and their gradual return to something approaching a Fenland habitat could provide the correct conditions for Swallowtails to flourish there again.
Previous re-introductions have failed largely because the water-levels could not be maintained in Wicken nature reserve as the surrounding areas were drained and Milk Parsley died-out in the drier conditions of such a small reserve. A start has already been made and land opposite Wicken is now being flooded. There is still a huge difference in the land-levels out there, with Wicken a raised island of carr fen - since the Romans built the lodes (canals) the land has fallen by some 30ft as it has been systematically drained and these features now stand-out proud of the surrounding land.
The last Large Coppers were also from the Fens, so it is possible that they may also be reintroduced....so it is not all bad news
N

[Jack Harrison]

The last Large Coppers were also from the Fens, so it is possible that they may also be reintroduced....so it is not all bad news

Nick. The Aurelian Legacy suggests that the last large Coppers were Home Fen (specimen dated 1860) and Norfolk Broads four years later in 1864.

You should get a copy of that book. It's excellent (private joke - Nick gave me a spare copy)

I believe that while the Great Fen will eventually prove to be ideal for reintroduction, plans are already being made for Large Coppers in the Broads. Indeed, a couple of years ago one adult was reported (presumably a small scale trial release, most likely unofficial) in the Yare Valley to the east of Norwich.

A varied genetic stock will of course be necessary. I have never bred Large Coppers myself, but I understand that they are not too difficult. And now to be controversial. Maybe BC should at the appropriate time encourage members to breed from the already substantial captive stock to build not only numbers but also genetic diversity.

Jack

[Neil Jones]

A varied genetic stock will of course be necessary. I have never bred Large Coppers myself, but I understand that they are not too difficult. And now to be controversial. Maybe BC should at the appropriate time encourage members to breed from the already substantial captive stock to build not only numbers but also genetic diversity.

Jack

I don't think this is they way to go. First of all someone has looked at the genetics of the captive stock, I believe, and they are not very diverse at all. Increasing the numbers will have no effect on this . It will not create any genes that are not present.

Secondly research has shown that animals adapt to captivity and undergo genetic changes in this respect VERY quickly. The captive stock has been in captivity too long. We need fresh stock from Holland's wild populations.

[Neil Jones]

And another unexpected observation from the literature. Our Swallowtail larvae will apparently feed on the shrub Mexican Orange Blossom Choisya ternata - perhaps not quite so bizarre as it sounds as some tropical species of Swallowtail use Choisya naturally.

Jack

The chemical composition of the plants in the Rutaceae ( including citrus and choisya) is similar.
The critical compounds for inducing oviposition and feeding are present in both. Ovoposition tends to be more sensitive though.

There is some research on Swallowtails in an area of Finland. There they use three plants. Two species of Angelica and Milk Parsley. The research shows that the caterpillars grow faster on the Milk Parsley. You can see therefore how ours have evolved to specialise.
Wild Angelica is recorded as a foodplant for the British subspecies in a number of the books.

[NickB]

... plans are already being made for Large Coppers in the Broads. Indeed, a couple of years ago one adult was reported (presumably a small scale trial release, most likely unofficial) in the Yare Valley to the east of Norwich.
Jack

I have also read that Large Copper had been re-introduced at Woodwalton Fen near Peterborough at some time or other; I understand the need for secrecy in some quarters as collectors do still, unhappily, continue their "hobby"....but I do also find it very frustrating when information is "kept out of the public domain" for these reasons.

Similarly, I find the secrecy behind sites where "special" species are established, smacks of an exclusivity that I feel uncomfortable about; if you aren't a member of that "club" you are assumed to be a potential liability, not a potential friend and ally! I hear the arguments about trampling and destruction of habitat; I remain unconvinced that this is such a big issue regarding the survival of a species...

This is all too "New Labour" for me - the proscription of those who do not "qualify" by those who are "in-the-know" creates a self-selecting elite which distances itself from the very people whose support is crucial for long-term success. ......
Rant over...
N

[Jack Harrison]

Nick wrote:

I have also read that Large Copper had been re-introduced at Woodwalton Fen near Peterborough at some time or other

That was true but the stock died out circa 1994.

Similarly, I find the secrecy behind sites where "special" species are established, smacks of an exclusivity that I feel uncomfortable about; if you aren't a member of that "club" you are assumed to be a potential liability, not a potential friend and ally!

We’re not as bad as birders though. It is the obsessive secrecy of the birding community that has quite directly led to my own loss of enthusiasm.

I had good reason to believe that Buzzards began nesting in my area about three or four years ago. I gave this information on the internet local bird group in the hope that someone far more expert than I am would be able to pin down the precise nest sites and help in the conservation. I was told – quite rudely I thought – that I should not publicly discuss sensitive species and was in effect told to shut up. I did exactly that and have not submitted any bird sightings to the group since – who are the losers I wonder? The fact that I have had Goldcrests and Spotted Flycatchers (probably) nesting in the garden on occasions in the past few years has gone unreported.

So just imagine I come across a relic but probably just viable colony of Marsh Fritillaries in some remote part of the Fens and the same secrecy were to be applied as in the birding world. I would keep that discovery all to myself and sadly watch the colony decline into extinction.

Butterfly collecting is not a big issue nowadays. A far greater danger to fragile colonies of rare species is if too few people know about it and accidental destruction of the habitat occurs through ignorance. We all love to see and photograph rare butterflies; that is the modern form of collecting.

As for trampling, again the damage is surely over-rated? We are quite happy for trampling by livestock as that can produce beneficial micro-climates. Human trampling might similarly minimize scrub invasion. I believe that Duke of Burgundy might even benefit for a degree of human trampling (wasn’t it you Guy who said that?)

So let’s put this all into perspective. If few people knew – to give an example - that Fermyn Woods has strong colonies of Purple Emperor then I am sure the butterfly would be in greater danger than it is from the 100 or so cameras on a fine weekend in early July.

Jack