Mothing - advice

[Jack Harrison]

I tried this on another thread but no response.

I have been inspired by the BBC Nature's Top 40 item on moth trapping and might well broaden my interests.

For beginners, the programme hinted that a Heath Trap is a good relatively cheap starting point rather that the more expensive Robinson. But I know very little about the subject so seek your advice. Skinners with all the extras seem good at under £150. I am no good at DIY (dangerously hopeless in fact) so would need something that can simply be plugged in and start working.

I am in a village location in South Cambridgeshire. The trap would be set up in the back garden and should cause minimal nuisance to neighbours (and to the family being on the side away from bedrooms). Mains electricity would be available with a lead of up to say 15 metres.

My aims would not initially be particularly ambitious, identification being the first priority, probably by taking photos and then by using a suitable field guide. I already have "Concise Guide to the Moths of Great Britain and Ireland" by Paul Waring and Martin Townsend, but might need more info later if I really get into this new hobby.

So some advice please on what to look at and what price to expect to pay, links to suppliers, etc.

Jack

[Piers]

Hi Jack,

I good place to start would be Watkins and Doncaster - http://www.watdon.com - who sell a range of traps including two types of Heath trap.

My choice would be a 40w actinic Heath trap of the 'bucket' variety (you'll see what I mean when you go to the site).

They will also be able to sell you Paul Warring's 'A Guide to Moth Traps and Their Use' for about £5 which is an invaluable little tome for anyone starting out.

Heath traps are excellent and especially useful as they're very portable should you wish to venture further afield. As well as mains power, they will run off a 12v 'jelly acid' battery too (or your car ciggy lighter socket) which is an advantage over the Robinson or Skinner because you won't have too shell out £500 on a generator!!! W&D will sell you a battery and charger too.

Heath traps will not give you the sheer quantity of moths that a Robinson will, but on a good night you will certainly have enough to contend with in the trap come the morning; perhaps several hundred depending upon locality and weather conditions. It has also been shown that actinic lights do attract some species which will not readily come to mercury vapour bulbs.

All in all the Heath is an excellent trap at an entry level price, and the best thing about mothing is that it is a 12 month a year hobby!!

Anyway, have a look at Watkins and Doncaster's site and do buy the little moth trap guide as it's full of useful advice and information.

All the best,

Felix.

[Pete Eeles]

This might help Jack:

http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/reports_als.php

and their extensive list of guides on the ALS website:

http://www.angleps.com/guides.php

Cheers,

- Pete

[Shirley Roulston]

Jack, if you look in the General look for Paul he has got a very odd moth trap along the same idea as you are saying in this thread, although his is a bit iffy and as we haven't heard from him for a while, things might have got a bit pear shaped
Shirley

[Jack Harrison]

Some useful advice there but I have realised there is a problem that makes it impractical for me - cats. (I woke up in the night and the thought struck me). I have my own and this village is a cat friendly area. And before anyone tells me off, yes they do very occasionally catch birds but very rarely indeed. Cats love to show you their catches by bringing them indoors so I doubt that I have overlooked all that many bird casualties. In truth, I would estimate that they catch no more than three or four per year. Now voles are a different story.....

Anyway, I would imagine that moths swarming round a trap would be just too much of a temptation for the moggies and they would destroy/mutilate huge numbers. The bright light, especially if there is a fault and UV is emitted, moreover could be dangerous for the cats.

So I have more or less decided to abandon the idea of a light trap. I will however look into sugaring. This might be profitable in this rural locality with a small wood close by.

Jack

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Hi Jack, I also own a couple of moggies so I know exactly where you are coming from. One of mine is rather old so never catches anything, too much effort when food is provided! The other hasn't caught any birds, he is either too slow or too lazy but yes voles and the like are another story!
As far as moth trapping goes, Harry loves chasing insects, he ferrets around in the flower bed after spiders and chases moths that are trapped in the house and when they are out at night. So also for me a moth trap would not be such a great idea.
However, in the Summer when it is a bit warmer, you could just sit outside with a light for a while, then you can keep control of the cats as well, plus you won't have to leave a light on all night.
That's what I am going to do, no doubt Millie will go in after a few minutes, but Harry would stay outside. Also, I have a two man tent that I can put up, I could shine the light from inside at a tent wall, Harry inside the tent with me (he is fine with it), and then wait to see what lands on the outside.
Failing that maybe you could lock the cats inside for a while?
Em

[Susie]

Hi Jack,

Have you done any mothing before?

If you haven't then my advice would be to go along to some local events run by either your local wildlife trust or moth group and see if you enjoy it. They will give you lots of advice and may even be able to lend you some equipment in the short term. (I was fortunate enough to be given a Skinner trap some years ago by an extremely kind member of a moth group but that is exceptional).

Once you decide to start mothing at home you may be able to get by with just a white sheet, a net and a bulb if you are prepared to sit out with the trap. Indeed, you will probably get a realistic idea of what is flying this way because not everything will settle inside the egg boxes.

Waring and Townsend is a very good beginners book and I wouldn't be without mine.

Don't worry about cats, they aren't a major problem.

Good luck. Moths are FAB!!!

P.S. Anglian Leps are very good, (as per Pete's link) I use them myself.

[Jack Harrison]

Susie said:

Don't worry about cats, they aren't a major problem.

I would like to feel reassured about that. Cats in my experience have a fascination with creepy crawlies. Favourite toy at present is a laser pointer - they chase the light round in circles, up the wall, etc. Of course the main reason I have cats is to control the Sparrow population. The birds wake me up in the morning with their incessant chirping; the cats do a good job in keeping numbers down.

Seriously, even if I kept my cats indoors while mothing, neighbourhood cats might get a few moths around the trap. So what do others think?

Jack

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Seriously, even if I kept my cats indoors while mothing, neighbourhood cats might get a few moths around the trap. So what do others think?

It depends Jack, do the other cats come into your garden often? You may just be able to get away with it.
But all I can think of at the moment is that you are going to have to stay outside with it. It's tricky because you have cats, you could have put down some smell that they dislike, but of course that would affect yours.
I did stay out in tha garden for a bit on night in the some to see what I could find. I didn't lock the cat flap to keep them in. This is what I did, if it helps.

I got a torch, I constructed a little holder for the torch simply so I didn't have to hold it! Then I sat a few metres away. I had one of the cats with me, Harry - he didn't want to go to bed with out me. So I sat away from the torch, and Harry sniffed it then came over. We sat and waited. Then a few moths came, but I was going to use them as a test to see whether Harry would be able to stay instead of chase. Of course, he slowly started to creep towards. I called him back, he came. This happened a few times. Then, a few more moths came, even though I was fine from where I was, I still wanted to get closer. So I started to move towards the torch, Harry followed. I knew that the temptation was growing, so I picked him up. Now I don't know whether any of your cats would do this, but he sits along my arm like a leopard on a branch, so I can control him better. Therefore the moths are safe and Harry was happy because he got close.

As far as other cats are concerned, having Harry with me helped, but it depends what I am doing. If I am making something, painting or whatever when I don't want other cat running around in the garden, then Harry would chase them away. When I am fine with it, they play in the garden. I don't know whether it's a Harry and Me thing, or whether your cats would defend your territory.

I know 'trap' is a sit outside and wait, where as you are wanting something where you can leave it by the sound of it. Maybe if you have something to repel cats, and then put it away when it comes to the morning and let your ones out?
Em

[Shirley Roulston]

To Jack. I've never heard of a chirping cat, are they a special breed. My cat has a fasination with the decorations on the Christmas tree and the tree itself, the tree rocks from side to side and the decorations are batted with little paws until the carpet is cover with bits of tinsel and the coloured balls. So, when your out at night provide all the moggies in the district with a decorated tree and they will leave the moths alone.
Regards Shirley

[JKT]

I've never thought of cats, but if you will burn the lamp all night, you will have a very friendly flock of small birds chirping to you in the morning...

Also, if you use special lamps, they might be dangerous to cats' eyes as well as yours. You can were goggles, but I doubt they will.

[Jack Harrison]

JKT:

very friendly flock of small birds chirping to you in the morning...

Brilliant. If the birds get there first, then I can set the cats on them and save on Whiskas, Kit-e-Kat or Tesco's finest cat food. A moth trap will pay for itself in no time

I had thought of the light problem that might affect animals' eyes. I have rather gone off the whole idea of a moth trap unless someone who has cats can put my mind at rest.

Jack

[Susie]

I don't have cats but I my neighbours have cats and the cats often come to visit - they have never been a problem.

I still wouldn't invest in a trap yet though if I were you, until you have tried mothing. You may not like it. It may be a year round hobby but for many months of the year you don't catch an awful lot apart from little tiny brown jobs. Some people like the challenge of identifying them, often via disection and with the aid of a microscope, I find it a pain in the behind and can't be bothered.

I am not quite sure where your worry lies re: the cats. Obviously the moths can't harm the cats. The light won't harm the cats either. If you are concerned that the cats will harm the moths then I wouldn't if I were you, the life of a moth is fraught with unpleasant events. If the cats don't get them then it will be the bats that fly above the trap picking off the juciest of the catch and if they manage to avoid them then it will be the beady-eyed robin who views the trap in the morning as a veritable banquet. If the moth escapes all those predators then it may still fall prey to the enthusiastic entomologist with microscope and scapel to hand.

[KeynvorLogosenn]

Jack, as far as I am aware, cats eyes are very sensitive to UV - more so than ours, this allows them to see better at night. I am not sure whether a light from a moth trap would harm them, maybe if it was emiting very levels of UV then maybe it could. But surely these things have to comply with saftey regulations about how much UV they emit?
If JKT said 'wear goggles', then the amount of UV could be harmful , do you wear them when using a moth trap JKT?
I didn't want to take any risks with my vision or my cats vision, hence why I used a simple torch and when I was out I wore shades even though it was dark as my eyes wouldn't be able to adjust to the light from the torch if I moved closer, and Harry seemed fine with it. But that was just a torch, I am not sure about the light emitted from traps.
Em

[Jack Harrison]

I have more or less abandoned the idea. But it is interesting that nowhere in the literature have I seen any mention of the inherent hazards for the trapped moths and possibly injury to other animals.

I would simply want to improve my knowledge and i/d skills but the "co-lateral" damage is probably too great to make it viable.

Jack

[JKT]

If JKT said 'wear goggles', then the amount of UV could be harmful , do you wear them when using a moth trap JKT?

Yes I do, or at least wrap-around sunglasses, which are supposed to have 100% UV protection. Even then I try to avoid staring at the lamps from close distance. From further away it should not matter as the intensity is related to the inverse of distance squared (how do you say that in English?).

On the other hand, I don't use ordinary lamps. The Hg lamps have special glass which allows the interesting (for moths) wavelengths to pass through, while absorbing the most harmful wavelengths. Normal Hg lamps have milky glass and that absorbs the UV almost completely. The fluorescent tubes are likewise specially designed for catching insects, which again means UV.

[KeynvorLogosenn]

That's interesting to know, I wear shades anyway, certainly darker ones on a brighter day, so I would be wearing them anyway near any bright object!
How far away from these things do you have to be so that intensity is low enough to remove the shades? I am thinking of the cats here, maybe it wouldn't be alright for Harry to stay out with me if I ever use one of these.
Em

[JKT]

I don't really know. With the normal 125W Hg (or as someone wrote MV) lamps it should not matter. Just don't stare at the lamp - it is too bright. A bit like staring at the sun right after coming from shade.

I seem to recall that the problem with humans results partly from the fact that we don't see the UV. Therefore the iris does not close as it should. The warnings are probably more related to the use of UV tubes where the amount of visible light is quite low. Those special Hg lamps are somewhere in the middle as the eye will adapt to their brightness as fast as it can, but there is still the UV to consider.

[Rogerdodge]

Jack (how's the leg by the way)
I have a moth trap.
"She who must think she is being obeyed" got it for me for Christmas a few years back.
She got it for about £100 from an Ad in the Butterfly Conservation magazine.
I only run it 7 or 8 times a year.
We are surrounded by cats and they are no problem.
Occasionaly we see birds get a moth or two - but so what?
I fill the bottom of the trap with old egg boxes, and (this is important) leave a number of upside down egg boxes around the trap.
I set it going on a timer to run from dusk til dawn.
I usually get to it an hour or so after dawn.
It has never failed to amaze. One night we had 20 individuals of 5 species of Hawk Moth!.
God knows what else we get as I am no good at ID (yet!).
Get one Jack - it is great fun, and there is no rule that says you have to know the IDs or take it seriously in anyway!.
Regards.
Roger
(Must get together in the New Year - are you going to the Photographic Workshop?
I shall defend you from Gruditch!!! )

[Jack Harrison]

I think you've persuaded me Roger. Good advice about the egg boxes around and outside the trap.

One reason I am pursuing this possibility of mothing is that I fear my butterflying next season might be restricted somewhat because of my injured leg. To be honest, it's not going well. The grafts have failed and the deep wounds are only repairing very slowly. I am told that it will take months. At least no pain, no infection (although needs dressing ever two days), no real lack of mobility but very concerned about accidental knocks to a very vulnerable area.

Anyway, I will think I will go ahead with a moth trap.

Now would this be a good starting point?

http://www.watdon.co.uk/the-naturalists ... Traps.html

and go down to E7593

What extras/spares would I also need?

Jack