Buddleia

[Martin]

Please, please, please, don't tell me you have fallen victim to the Ragwort urban myth!
For a horse to suffer any ill effects from the stuff it has to eat about 5 tons at a single sitting.
Leave it alone - butterflies love it, and it looks pretty good too.
Oooh, I do get cross sometimes!!!
Roger

Then why is it official described as "Injurious" and, I believe, that local councils have a legal obligation to irradicate it?

Martin.

[Eris]

The problem with Ragwort is that the effects are cumulative. Its not the amount at one sitting, its the effect of small amounts over many months. There are certainly enough recorded cases for it to be taken seriously as a poisonous plant, you only have to browse Pubmed and read veterinary journals to see that. It's not so much the number of animals that are killed, its those that suffer long term liver damage that go very much under-reported until a long time after exposure.

They brought in a ragwort act in 2004 so yes legally you have to remove it.

I'll happily plant other stuff for the Butterflies in my field but any Ragwort has to go. My local farmer won't touch our field for a hay crop unless it is clean of ragwort.

Interesting article about using the Cinnabar moths to clear it is here though:
http://www.farmersjournal.ie/2003/0920/ ... alth.shtml

[Rogerdodge]

http://www.ragwortfacts.com/
http://www.ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com/
http://www.ragwort.org/
http://www.smallholder.co.uk/mostpopula ... agwort.php
http://www.buglife.org.uk/conservation/ ... ctfile.htm
http://www.buglife.org.uk/conservation/ ... flower.htm

These sites seem to explain that the press have hyped the injuriousness of Ragwort, and the scope of legislation.
The last two are from the excellent Buglife - an organisation I commend to all on this site!

Then why is it official described as "Injurious" and, I believe, that local councils have a legal obligation to irradicate it?

Martin - it is indeed "injurious", but so are dozens of other plants, and there is no hysteria about them?
The local councils do not have an obligation to eradicate it, and nor do landowners, and it is illegal to uproot it without the landowners permission - as with all wild plants.
An Order to Eradicate has to be granted for any obligation to be made.
I am no expert on this matter - it has really only hit my radar in the last few weeks, but it does seem that there is an element of over-reaction here.
Ragwort is an attractive and ecologically important, native plant.
"Dreaded" ragwort indeed!
Roger

[Gruditch]

Just to add to that, I just helped run a butterfly ID day, where we had a local Ranger from the council attending. He said that sheep actually don't have a longer enough life span, for the accumulative effect of Ragwort too harm them.

Gruditch

[Piers]

I addition, it's only Common Ragwort (Senecio jacobaea) that DEFRA have decreed to be an injurious weed.

Sadly ill-informed over zealous types have been trying to eradicate any ragwort species that they find, including rare or local species.

Pity the poor invertebrate communities that depend upon Ragworts for survival.

Felix.

[Jack Harrison]

In Breckland (Thetford Forest and surrounding sandy areas), Ragwort is by far the most important nectar source for Small Coppers.

Interestingly, Small and Essex Skippers seldom use Ragwort much preferring Vipers Bugloss.

Jack

[Shirley Roulston]

O.K Roger,

Here's the deal, I'll grow the dreaded Ragwort and when Defra fine me which believe me it would be a heafty fine you'll it pay for me, thanks I'll pop over to the field as I haven't finish the clear up and see if I can see the Small Skipper's and I can then take a photo. This my hay field is 7 weeks over due to be cut as least the butterflies enjoyed it, the field has a wonderful spread of Bird's Foot Trevoil, spread like mad it did.

[Shirley Roulston]

P.S Roger,

Just really read your comments, I own the field.

[Eris]

Unfortunately I can very easily see that if people who want to protect butterflies start trying protect Ragwort
they will quickly and severely alienate any farmers or landowners who otherwise might consider being Butterfly friendly.

I've known a horse die from ragwort poisoning, and believe me its not a nice way to go.

Anyone seriously interested in the the tested clinical toxicity of ragwort should read the report presented to the World Health Organization on Pyrroliziding Alkaloids and their effects which can be found here:

http://www.inchem.org/documents/ehc/ehc/ehc080.htm

We own land. I also own another field in Somerset, both are registered with Defra and used for hay crops. Luckily for the wildlife I really liked butterflies so will keep alternative plants available and even go out of my way to plant more suitable ones, The ragwort has already gone as the fields would not provide a legal saleable hay crop if it was left there .

But as someone brought up on a smallholding from birth I have lived amongst farmers and livestock owners all my life. And can honestly say that if most of them came across people trying to encourage the growing or preserving of ragwort for butterflies the attitude is far more likely to be "Spray the entire ****** field quick!, before the bloody idiots try to get it protected." Rather than "Oh dear maybe we should leave it alone"

Trying to protect ragwort may well just result in more butterflies getting eradicated.

[Gruditch]

Butterfly friendly farmers, around my way, if they can't shoot it, then they don't even know it exists.

Gruditch

[Shirley Roulston]

With the Ragwort all gone nearly I could only come up with this moth no idea what it is. But to give the poor Buddleia section a rest from the dear old Ragwort I'll open a new section for what I found along a puplic footpath later this afternoon.

Picture 169.jpg (162.53 KiB) Viewed 3181 times

[Eris]

Butterfly friendly farmers, around my way, if they can't shoot it, then they don't even know it exists.

Gruditch

Now that's unfair, our local farmers certainly know the ramblers exist , and they haven't shot one of the b*g*ers yet!

[Matsukaze]

How good have people found Buddleia as an attractant for Hummingbird Hawk-moths? What other plants work? I have tried Red Valerian but cannot get it to flower here for some reason.

[Susie]

The only hummingbird hawk moth that I have seen in the garden was feeding on the buddleia, Pink Delight.

A few years ago on holiday in Devon there was a "buddleia bank" with about a dozen different types of buddleia in it and these had quite a few hbhm feeding from them. I've also seen them feeding on water forgetmenot and lantanas.

I added Buddleia alternilifolia to my collection today.

[Susie]

Hi,
I have bought an Amateur Gardening magazine to-day and inside there is a four page feature on Buddleja, a gentleman Andrew Bullock grows loads of them and there's picture's of different varieties, a beautiful yellow called Golden Glow, a lilac coloured one called B.lindleyana and a few others. He says that he has seen at one time more than 500 butterflies. If the Buddleja is left to grow can go up to 40ft. Its a very interesting feature and with this issue a free packet of seeds Verbena bonariensis. A rather nice garden magazine for only £1.80p. Shirley

Thanks for that, Shirley. I bought the magazine and enjoyed it. I am looking forward to growing the Vebena bonariensis seeds too, I grew two packets worth of these last spring and still have room for more in the garden!!

[Piers]

I added Buddleia alternilifolia to my collection today.

Hi, that's a great Buddleia species, the flowers are produced on the old growth so don't prune in the spring like you would a davidii, or you won't have any blooms!

Felix.

[Neil Jones]

O.K Roger,

Here's the deal, I'll grow the dreaded Ragwort and when Defra fine me which believe me it would be a heafty fine you'll it pay for me, thanks I'll pop over to the field as I haven't finish the clear up and see if I can see the Small Skipper's and I can then take a photo. This my hay field is 7 weeks over due to be cut as least the butterflies enjoyed it, the field has a wonderful spread of Bird's Foot Trevoil, spread like mad it did.

This is a bit frustrating because these kinds of statements seriously undermine the conservation work that I and others are trying to do. Like a lot of landowners you have been lied to and misled by people with an axe to grind and money to make. What you and others are saying is simply not true. THERE IS NO LEGAL OBLIGATION ON LANDOWNERS OR COUNCILS TO CONTROL RAGWORT. Some vested interests with some hysterically bad statistics tried to get this into law when they failed they go around telling everyone the law changed anyway. You can under extreme circumstances be ordered to control it like in extreme circumstances you can be ordered to keep your kids off the street. You will not be fined for having ragwort on your land.

I have made a very very thorough study of the scientific literature and of the false opinions that landowners hold as a result
of certain people with money to make or a cause to promote and others that are naive with regards to the scientific method.

The plant is poisonous but all the properly conducted studies say the same thing. Poisoning is uncommon.
One French study actually involved deliberately poisoning animals because of the thought that French ragwort might be invisibly different and non-toxic. THEY COULD NOT FIND A SINGLE EXAMPLE IN THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE.
A later study found some but only six cases in around a decade.

The plant does sometimes need controlling but now we have a bunch of people scaring people with made up myths.
The seeds do not spread more than a matter of metres from the parent plants so all the letters in the press about it on road verges are nonsense. Most of what you will see in the press is completely made up and repeated from one or two dubious sources.
It is not the yellow peril people are being led to believe. The chemicals which can cause problems ARE PRESENT IN 3% OF THE WORLD'S PLANTS. The only reason we have all this fuss about ragwort is because of campaigners saying silly things.

Please believe me. I have scoured the planet for books and scientific papers in order to be able to know what the truth is with certainty.

The consequence of all the campaigning is wildlife sites including SSSI's being managed in a manner which is unsympathetic to the dozens of insects for which ragwort is important. It rarely needs the control efforts that are being made against it.

For further details please see http://www.ragwortfacts.com

Or this site written by a Dutch horse owner who was a member of a ragwort extermination group until she decided she wanted to prove all the anti-ragwort stories with science. She then discovered no evidence for the stories only myths and
compiled a stunning international array of experts to help her write the site.
http://www.ragwort.jakobskruiskruid.com/

[Jack Harrison]

There are many many more dangerous substances present in other plants and alcohol consumption is a far bigger risk to the livers of the general population.

So put down that glass of wine and chew ragwort instead.

I might try the latter but not the former (well, chew a Ragwort leaf and see if it does any harm - doubtless it will taste disgusting).

If you see no more postings from me within the next two weeks, then we will have proved once and for all that Ragwort really is lethal:)

Jack

[Shirley Roulston]

So, we're back on the Ragwort, tomorrow I'll call in the local vets and asked them how dangerous ragwort is to animals.

Why when I sell my big bale hay to famers, do they ask 'is there any ragwort in this hay'? Its deadly to horses and cattle fresh or dried, its not meant to be a joke, its not something to laugh at.

I found that yes butterflies did go on it but because there was little else in the fields at the end of the summer but dried grass.

[Neil Jones]

There are many many more dangerous substances present in other plants and alcohol consumption is a far bigger risk to the livers of the general population.

So put down that glass of wine and chew ragwort instead.

I might try the latter but not the former (well, chew a Ragwort leaf and see if it does any harm - doubtless it will taste disgusting).

If you see no more postings from me within the next two weeks, then we will have proved once and for all that Ragwort really is lethal:)

Jack

Where did you find that quote? I can find it in google but not on this forum. I wouldn't recommend you eat this plant but certainly chewing on a leaf shouldn't kill you from the toxicity levels in the literature. BTW I am a life long teetotaller

Incidentally one of the urban myths is that you can be poisoned by handling ragwort. It isn't true.