My first post in this group and it is an ID query. Yesterday, whilst out walking my dog in Coventry, two small Butterflies flew out from a nearby hedgerow. This hedgerow borders a large grassy field (ex school playing fields) and a large allotment area in a busy part of Coventry.
The two butterflies were of a similar size to a Holly Blue but the colour of a Brimstone both on upper and lower wings. I couldn't see any markings on the wings.
I know most of the common Butterflies around here, plus I have a good Butterfly ID book by Paul Whalley, but I can't find any source that can answer what species it was.
Any ideas folks?
TIA
John
Small yellow Butterfly query.
Re: Small yellow Butterfly query.
Hi John,
From your description I would say this is most likely to be a moth - probably Brimstone Moth (http://ukmoths.org.uk/species/opisthograptis-luteolata/). I can't think of any butterfly that would match your description, but the moth does perfectly and this common and widespread species is occasionally active during the day.
From your description I would say this is most likely to be a moth - probably Brimstone Moth (http://ukmoths.org.uk/species/opisthograptis-luteolata/). I can't think of any butterfly that would match your description, but the moth does perfectly and this common and widespread species is occasionally active during the day.
Re: Small yellow Butterfly query.
Hi Callum
Thanks for your reply.
I know my moths better than I know my Butterflies having trapped Moths for years. I did consider the Brimstone Moth at first but whilst the Brimstone Moth is relatively of a similar size to the Holly Blue I couldn't see any markings on the wings. I would have thought I would have seen any orange on the wings and orange bordered white spots, as they are quite prominent on that moth, but I didn't.
Like you I can't think of anything else that would fit the description. I just can't get my head around not seeing any markings on the wings.
Thanks for your reply.
I know my moths better than I know my Butterflies having trapped Moths for years. I did consider the Brimstone Moth at first but whilst the Brimstone Moth is relatively of a similar size to the Holly Blue I couldn't see any markings on the wings. I would have thought I would have seen any orange on the wings and orange bordered white spots, as they are quite prominent on that moth, but I didn't.
Like you I can't think of anything else that would fit the description. I just can't get my head around not seeing any markings on the wings.
Re: Small yellow Butterfly query.
No not that. As I said, the colour of a Brimstone and I couldn't see any markings. Yellow Shell is a well marked Moth plus is darker and also a different shape.
Unless I see it again, and can get a photo of it, I feel this is going to go down as unidentified. It's got me beat.
Unless I see it again, and can get a photo of it, I feel this is going to go down as unidentified. It's got me beat.
Re: Small yellow Butterfly query.
I think you might be right that this is one that needs re-finding and photographing!
My next suggestion was going to be Barred Straw? Similar size & similar-ish colour ("straw yellow") & variable enough that it can be very weakly marked. Often flies by day, and usually ID'd in the trap by its weird resting posture so might not be instantly familiar in flight?
You say the shape was different to a Yellow Shell - so what was the shape? And how clearly did you see the whatever-they-weres - did you get a look at them settled, or only in flight? I can of course only speak for myself but I would rarely feel confident about whether a butterfly/moth had markings on its wings unless I had seen it settled.
My next suggestion was going to be Barred Straw? Similar size & similar-ish colour ("straw yellow") & variable enough that it can be very weakly marked. Often flies by day, and usually ID'd in the trap by its weird resting posture so might not be instantly familiar in flight?
You say the shape was different to a Yellow Shell - so what was the shape? And how clearly did you see the whatever-they-weres - did you get a look at them settled, or only in flight? I can of course only speak for myself but I would rarely feel confident about whether a butterfly/moth had markings on its wings unless I had seen it settled.
Re: Small yellow Butterfly query.
Hi Callum
Definitely wasn't a Barred Straw. Too open and narrow winged, but I take your point about the possible weak markings of this moth. I have seen them virtually without markings until you take a very close look at them..
The Butterfly / Moth flew very close to me and briefly rested before flying to the top of the hedgerow (15' above me) where it rested but too far away for me to get a great look.
Being so close to me in flight gave me a good chance to look at them (don't forget that there were two of them flying together) and they seemed to me to be flying like butterflies (hard to put into words why I thought that). That is why they caught my attention.
Definitely wasn't a Barred Straw. Too open and narrow winged, but I take your point about the possible weak markings of this moth. I have seen them virtually without markings until you take a very close look at them..
The Butterfly / Moth flew very close to me and briefly rested before flying to the top of the hedgerow (15' above me) where it rested but too far away for me to get a great look.
Being so close to me in flight gave me a good chance to look at them (don't forget that there were two of them flying together) and they seemed to me to be flying like butterflies (hard to put into words why I thought that). That is why they caught my attention.
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Chris Speke
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Re: Small yellow Butterfly query
Visited Eyarth rocks today( near Ruthin) to check out flight of Pearl Bordered Fritillary. They enjoyed 20 degree conditions with clear skies and were numerous and for once, to be seen over the whole area. They always do well after cold winters! Also in flight were Cinnabar moths and a small yellow moth which is the size of the Holly Blue and is the Speckled Yellow.
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Padfield
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Re: Small yellow Butterfly query.
I suspect this will remain a mystery unless you see some more on another dog walk. Nevertheless, I'd be fairly confident they weren't butterflies. No European butterfly fits the description - indeed, no world butterflies do really - and certainly, no British species even comes close, taking size, colour and (lack of) markings into account. On the other hand, there are several yellow Geometers, including those already mentioned, that have relatively unmarked forms and are just the size of a holly blue. It would actually be quite an interesting discovery if there were unmarked brimstones moths in Coventry - such a form flies in the South of France (f. provincialis).
Guy
Guy
Guy's Butterflies: https://www.guypadfield.com
The Butterflies of Villars-Gryon : https://www.guypadfield.com/villarsgryonbook.html
The Butterflies of Villars-Gryon : https://www.guypadfield.com/villarsgryonbook.html
Re: Small yellow Butterfly query.
Sorry for the late reply. I'm not used to a forum that doesn't send an email out alerting you to you receiving a reply. I haven't seen them since and I do that walk twice a day so I am not optimistic that I will see them again. You guys are probably right in your assumptions it's just that I have walked this walk for years and never seen anything like them before.