The impact of collecting

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dave brown
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Re: Neil Hulme

Post by dave brown »

David M wrote:I do hope that people exercise more caution regarding the exact whereabouts of these insects this time round, however. We really don't want to be seeing individuals with nets taking these specimens
Neil, sorry to use your personal diary but David makes a very good point. It has long been suspected that the 2013 Kingsdown British born population ended abruptly due to collectors. It's funny how reasonable numbers suddenly became zero within a couple of days, followed by specimens turning up in collections, reportedly coming from British born stock. We need to temper our excitement over breeding Long Tailed Blue in Britain with caution over exact location, unless numbers can sustain some unwelcome collection. Not sure on the answer as we all love to see a new or rare species, or whether my caution is unnecessary, as the species will never survive in Britain. It must migrate back or face the inevitable. Just a little sad that news of any in Kent will probably be withheld because of past experience.

Excellent article by the way. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it and it should enthuse those near to the South Coast to check the Everlasting Pea, which I do regularly at Dungeness, without success so far.
Last edited by dave brown on Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pete Eeles
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The impact of collecting

Post by Pete Eeles »

This thread has been started to stimulate a rational debate on the impact of collecting and has been "seeded" with comments regarding the Long-tailed Blue (above). Given the sensitivity of this topic, it will be moderated accordingly :)

Cheers,

- Pete
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Susie
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Susie »

For exactly the reason above if I do see any I won't be reporting where online and will only give information to people I know and trust!

I did a wasted journey to Kent last time after a collector had allegedly cleared the place out the day before. :evil:
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Tony Moore
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Tony Moore »

Similarly with photographs. I always have the GPS on my camera turned off when photographing butterflies.

Tony M.
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Pete Eeles
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Pete Eeles »

I don't know if the butterflies disappeared due to collecting, or whether they just headed south.

On a related note, I''ve been corresponding with some folks from a collecting forum, to try and understand their reasons for collecting and I do, personally, respect the amount of knowledge that some among them have (and some are UKB members too). The usual justifications for collecting come out - such as collecting helps foster an interest in the younger generation, collecting provides a basis of scientific study etc. etc. Mark Colvin's excellent in the subject article is worth a read in this regard (see http://www.dispar.org/reference.php?id=92).

In this particular instance, though, I can see no justification for taking any LTB at all and to take them when it is known that people are looking forward to seeing them is, in my opinion, supremely selfish. In this case, the only justification seems to be "I want them for my collection" which I personally think is no justification at all, but certain collectors think otherwise it would appear. It's also interesting that there's a debate happening regarding the disposal of collections, given that many museums are overwhelmed and only want the more unusual items in any collection. The rest, I assume, go on the scrapheap. The fact that collectors, themselves, are discussing this is clearly a positive thing.

One particular experience sums up the difference in perspective for me. I was on a National Trust reserve watching Chalk Hill Blues, talking with someone that I know collects aberrations. He saw an ab. fowleri and asked me if I was going to take any photos, since he would then take this individual as a specimen for his collection. Aside from the fact that this was an NT reserve, that difference in mentality sums it up for me. Collectors collect, in many cases, because they simply want to add to their collection, as I said above. There is no science or greater purpose involved. But some collectors seem to have a hard time admitting this, in my experience. All you seem to get is the same old arguments churned out that it doesn't harm the population (and it doesn't), collecting has never been the cause of any extinction (and it hasn't), that the location and date information will be valuable in the future and so on. But those arguments, to me, in this day and age, don't hold water.

And just to provide some balance, I also know that some collectors would agree with me - those that do genuinely collect in order to further scientific study, for example. My other conclusion, therefore, is that you can't talk about collectors in general, only about specific individuals (or organisations) and their actions (such as the examples above). I think this is really important to remember.

Cheers,

- Pete
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Andy Wilson
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Andy Wilson »

Sadly, it seems that collectors spoil it all for the rest of us. Not only in the obvious way in that they collect and kill the butterflies we love, but also if they encourage genuine enthusiasts to become secretive. Personally, I would be in favour of full disclosure of site information, except in very special circumstances. When I retired from full-time work and was able to resume my childhood interest in butterflies, I was amazed at how much information was available on this and other web sites. I have discovered a lot places that were new to me and met all sorts of interesting people, as well of course as observing many species of butterfly -- some of which I had never seen in the wild before. This surely has to be a good thing.

I understand the need to protect places where a species has been recently reintroduced, e.g. some of the Large Blue sites. The point of these is that we hope that the butterflies will become permanently resident at such places, and eventually the colony will be so well established that the location can be disclosed. However, temporary natural colonisation of a site by an exotic species like the Long-Tailed Blue is another matter. With any luck, this may happen at several sites on the south coast this year, as it did in 2013. That year, I read about sightings in this forum and went to one of the sites to try and see them. Eventually, I got lucky on my third visit and saw just one individual. But that was good enough for me. It made my day (or year, or decade even!). If its location hadn't been publicised here, I would have missed out.

I have no idea what happened at the Kingsdown site in 2013. It might have been collectors, or it could have been natural dispersal or demise. But I would be very disappointed if the majority of good faith enthusiasts miss out on something spectacular because of the fear (grounded or ungrounded) of unscrupulous collectors.
dave brown
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by dave brown »

I actually didn't want or intend to start a thread about the controversial subject of collecting, but I understand Neil's position and apologise for my comments on his Personal Diary in response to the Long Tailed Blue. Now it has been started its perhaps best to differentiate between collecting for personal gain and scientific study. I don't think any of us has a problem with collecting for science, unless perhaps its done without permission of the land owner, which is unlikely with official and genuine scientific collection. I agree fully with Pete in his last sentence, so in my view they can be taken out of the equation straight away.

We are then left with the few who collect for personal satisfaction, and they are probably very few in number. The point of my original post was not to say I agreed, or disagreed with them, or the circumstances in which they feel justified for collecting, but rather the fact that some in Kent have already said they will not release site information if they find LTB's this year because of suspected collecting in 2013.

I personally do not agree with the concept of withholding site information as I for one enjoy seeing anything good and usual. You only have to ready my own diary to realise this. But if I am asked personally to keep site information from the masses then I will respect local wishes. If they have serious concerns about potential collectors then should I be fortunate enough to locate LTB this year then I will conform to the wishes of the locals. Unauthorised Collectors therefore have an impact, not only on the butterflies themselves, but also on the people who enjoy watching them.
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Jack Harrison
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Jack Harrison »

Dave Brown:
I personally do not agree with the concept of withholding site information
I agree with Dave. The more people know of a site, the more it is likely to be visited by responsible enthusiasts and thus the better the “policing”.

The somewhat sweeping comment that collectors were to blame for the sudden disappearance of L.T.Blues in 2013 strikes me as being emotional and I would like to see the evidence that collectors were involved. Is there any law to prevent the photographing of people using nets? If not, then “publish and be damned” (after the Duke of Wellington).

Jack
dave brown
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by dave brown »

Jack,
I personally do not have any evidence of collectors at Kingsdown in 2013 but I understand the concerns raised about this and other locations.

1. I understand someone was seen with a net at Kingsdown the day before they seemed to disappear. I think they were challenged. I also believe it was mentioned on the forum at the time by one of our own members who either witnessed it or spoke on site to a witness.

2. I did not attend the 2013 AES Exhibition but I have heard that some were on display there labelled British born specimens. With only a few sites that
year made public it does raise the possibility of collection at Kingsdown. Only the Collectors will really know.

Not sure what the answer is. People like to collect, but luckily these days its mainly with a camera.

It is an emotional subject, and like all emotive subjects there is probably no middle ground.
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David M
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by David M »

The problem here is that this is a phenomenon that only lasts a few short days. In addition, the number of individuals present is likely to be small.

With such a precarious time-span and population, I would certainly advocate (going against my general instincts) that knowledge of such sites remains solely within the circle of responsible butterfly enthusiasts, if at all possible.

I don't really want to think about what I might do if I travelled for several hours to see this species only to encounter a collector swishing a net at them.
millerd
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by millerd »

dave brown wrote:Jack,
I personally do not have any evidence of collectors at Kingsdown in 2013 but I understand the concerns raised about this and other locations.

1. I understand someone was seen with a net at Kingsdown the day before they seemed to disappear. I think they were challenged. I also believe it was mentioned on the forum at the time by one of our own members who either witnessed it or spoke on site to a witness.
On my one visit to Kingsdown in 2013, following several days of good sightings and in sunny weather, I had but one fleeting glimpse of a LTB. No one else there that day saw any at all. However, we did see someone with a net, who had apparently been on site since very early on. Others were quite sure he had been using it. Circumstantial maybe, but pretty strong circumstantial evidence of a collector.

Dave
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Jack Harrison
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Jack Harrison »

David M:
I don't really want to think about what I might do if I travelled for several hours to see this species only to encounter a collector swishing a net at them.
Not a personal experience but I recall something very similar in the bird twitching world.

A bird from North America had strayed off course and was seen for several days on a remote Scottish headland and was extensively twitched. One intrepid twitcher travelled an enormous distance only be to told he was too late: the "Mega" (in twitching jargon) had just been taken by a Sparrowhawk :(

Jack
David Simcox
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by David Simcox »

I would like to make a couple of observations. Although it is widely accepted that the decline of butterflies is due to habitat loss, either wholesale destruction or loss of quality, how can we prove that collecting has never impacted on a population nor caused the demise of a colony?
In the course of my work I have carried out Mark/ Release/ Recapture experiments on many species explore mobility and population size. A bi-product of this procedure is that you can calculate the percentage of the population flying that day that you have caught - in many ways mimicking the activities of an unscrupulous collector. It is not uncommon with some species, on some sites, for this figure to be in excess of 90%. If several collectors targeted the same site for a number of days, perhaps for financial gain, they would certainly have a detrimental effect.
Although I believe that most butterfly extinctions have historically been as a result of habitat degradation, I do not think that we can prove that collectors should be entirely exonerated.
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Pete Eeles
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Pete Eeles »

Thanks David. When I said that collectors have never been the cause of extinction, I was simply regurgitating what's been written elsewhere - but I would agree that common sense would suggest otherwise when over-collecting occurs.

Cheers,

- Pete
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Tony Moore
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Tony Moore »

I was in Coffs Harbour (Oz) a couple of years ago looking for the Black Grass-dart (Ocybadistes knightorum) - a species that is only found in the Coffs Harbour area. The local entomologists were keeping any locations very close to their chests and one told me of an incident when foreign collectors descended on an advertised colony and took everything they could find - imagines, larvae, ova, the lot. The colony was totally obliterated....

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Pete Eeles
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Pete Eeles »

Thanks Tony. That really is quite a shock. All of the accounts of butterfly over-collecting I've come across have been historic (e.g. Large Blue at Barnwell Wold in Northamptonshire in the 1800s, taken in some numbers year after year, including 1860 when over 200 adults were taken by a single dealer, when I suspect that the colony was unable to sustain this and the species became extinct here). However, your example is very recent and very worrying.

Cheers,

- Pete
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MikeOxon
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by MikeOxon »

I was reminded, at a recent talk about the extensive scientific research on the Great Tit population in Wytham Wood, how deleterious the effects of in-breeding between close relatives are, on the viability of any offspring produced.

Once a colony falls below a certain size, in-breeding becomes more likely and extinction soon follows. Hence, it is not necessary for collectors to completely destroy a colony for it to become non-viable.

On the other hand, some colonies have been re-invigorated by the introduction of new stock from neighbouring sites. This can be an important factor in conservation as natural pathways become closed between increasingly isolated populations.
talbot
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by talbot »

LTB is a migrant species.
There is no such thing as an "English colony" of LTB. They didn't even settle permanently in Northern France.
Those specimens must have migrated South as they naturally do, or been killed by a too fresh night.
I find the whole story about "the guy with the net must have wiped them out" totally "unscientific".

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jasonbirder
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by jasonbirder »

I find the whole story about "the guy with the net must have wiped them out" totally "unscientific"
Whats unscientific about it...

There weren't many of them...
Guy with net catches and kills some for whatever bizarre reason...
Even less left...colony dies out...

Yes, the overwhelming likelihood is they cannot propagate the colony over the winter because of our average temperatures...but they didn't get that far did they?

Would it be OK to blast away with a shotgun at the Short-toes Eagle in Hampshire as there's a possibility it won't re-orientate and migrate back southwards...
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Pete Eeles
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Re: The impact of collecting

Post by Pete Eeles »

I suspect that talbot (and welcome!) meant "objective" rather than scientific. I'm not quite sure how scientific you could make an analysis of the impact of collectors on removing specimens of a migrant species from a single site. Of course, it can never be proved that collectors were the primary cause of the specimens disappearing, just as it can never be proved that they weren't.

What is a fact is the at least one collector caught specimens at Kingsdown Leas since they were on display at the BENHS exhibition in 2013 (and I've had confirmation of other specimens collected at this site in 2013 by a different collector). That may well have diminished the remaining numbers to the point that enthusiasts missed out on seeing them and, in some cases, after a long trip.

Cheers,

- Pete
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