www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

I'm a new member and very much a beginner. As a youngster 60 years ago I used to collect butterflies and moths, and keep them in a cabinet, though I never caught anything in the least bit rare. I had a brief renewal at it 20 years ago, but stopped partly because I discovered that one wasn't encouraged to catch butterflies any more, even common ones.


But now I'd like to fill in some of the gaps, reasonably common butterflies and moths that I don't have in my collection, and wondered about breeding from egg, larva or pupa bought from a supplier. Presumably there's no objection to killing a butterfly you've bred yourself? But ideally I'd like to add to those in nature by releasing most of any I succeed in breeding, though I realise there are issues about introducing a different strain from those found locally, though I don't quite understand it. I don't think there is a similar issue with breeding humans!

But accepting there probably is a genuine issue for some species, I wonder if anyone could give guidance about which species there would be less of a problem? Pretty obviously migrant butterflies can't be a problem as they are from elsewhere anyway. But does the scale of the problem vary for other butterflies and moths?

Species I'd love to breed if it were acceptable would be: Clouded Yellow, Wall Brown, a Fritillary (maybe Silver Washed), White Admiral, Purple Emperor, Eyed or Large Elephant Hawk Moth, Swallow Tailed Moth, Garden Tiger.

I realise it's the wrong time of year and I'll have to wait!

Thanks in advance for any advice.

John

The Whites (except Wood White) are all common enough and easy to breed. Brimstone is common (in the south) and easy to breed

The "Vanessids" (Peacock, Tortoiseshell, Comma Red Admiral) are all common enough and fairly easy to breed.

Fritillaries are too scarce.

Browns are generally common but I have never found easy to breed as they hibernate as larvae.

Common and Small Blues are easy to breed (summer broods) although maybe too scarce to justify. Similarly Small Copper.
Hairstreaks - possibly too scarce although no harm,from collecting Purple Hairstreak eggs in winter from felled oaks

And of course, certainly not Swallowtail (even though I found easy with the Maltese race).

Easiest "starter" species is probably Orange Tip.

Jack

Thanks, Jack, for your help
Can you explain why scarcity is a problem for eg fritillaries and swallowtail? I'd probably buy eggs, larvae or pupae from a supplier. Is finding the larvae the problem, or is it the issue of releasing a different strain? I can see the need to be careful for rarer species.

John

Hi John - and welcome to UKB.

Most of the members here are not collectors, but photographers (the new form of "collecting"), so I doubt you'll get much of a response, other than questions regarding the ethics of collecting in this day and age! But I would suggest you take a look at Mark Colvin's article here:

http://www.dispar.org/reference.php?id=92

If you're still committed to filling in gaps, you can always buy deadstock and there are various suppliers, many of which sell their wares at the AES exhibition that is held on the first Saturday of every October (this year is the last year it will be held at Kempton Park racecourse).

If you want to obtain your own specimens then you'd do the least damage (depending on what you're after) by rearing your own, either from immature stages you find in the wild or by obtaining livestock from a dealer.

"Presumably there's no objection to killing a butterfly you've bred yourself?"
It depends who you ask. A lot of UKB members would object unless there's some purpose to it (see the Colvin article above).

If you do decide to rear things through then I suggest you read this, which will answer some of your questions:

http://www.dispar.org/reference.php?id=87

"Can you explain why scarcity is a problem for eg fritillaries and swallowtail?"
There are various reasons depending on the species. It could be habitat loss (including agricultural intensification), habitat fragmentation, climate change etc. etc.

Cheers,

- Pete

Thanks, Peter, for a very thorough reply. On the issue of releasing bred butterflies or moths the comment in your article that it depended on whether the species lives as a close-knit community or are more mobile made a lot of sense. Could you or someone say whether any of the following are in the more mobile category?

clouded yellow
eyed hawk moth
larger elephant hawk
garden tiger moth
swallow tailed moth
any fritillaries

I think I'm OK re clouded yellow!
Thanks

Hi John,

I can't comment on the moths, but as far as the butterflies are concerned, Clouded Yellow is a migratory insect. As for the Fritillaries, which of the UK ones are you concentrating on?

John

I have a problem with killing things of any kind simply for display. As far as breeding them yourself from bought stock in order to kill them is concerned, how do you know for sure the source is reputable and what exactly does reputable mean?

On the topic of scarcity. Everyone knows for example that Brimstone and Peacock butterflies are common but this year I have seen none in late summer and early autumn at all around my way. If I didn't know any better, I would say they were scarce.

Why not do what the rest of us do. Get a camera.

Not only can you "capture" the butterfly without harming it and allowing it to continue its species in a country where butterflies are generally on the decline but you will also find that the living ones have some wonderful behaviours to observe and that too can be captured on camera.

Hi John,

I would entirely second Ernie's answer. I find there is far more pleasure to be gained from photographing wild specimens than from breeding - whether for killing or release.

Furthermore: on the issue of release, the Invertebrate Link Code of Conduct for Collecting (https://www.amentsoc.org/publications/o ... -code.html) states that:

Bred or reared invertebrates that are surplus to requirements should not, without consultation as defined in Article 7.4, be released into the wild, except back into their parental population. Large numbers should not be released even into a parental population if it is small and localised.

In short, that means that if you're set on breeding individuals for ultimate release, then you must do so from individuals you have collected from the same population (never from purchased stock). My primary objection to purchased stock is exactly as raised by Ernie: there are no guarantees as to the ultimate source of that stock. I have recently heard it said of one (particularly disreputable) UK seller that his stock is never more than one or two generations away from wild individuals. Well, those wild individuals must be being collected from somewhere. That means that there is a risk attached to filling in your collection's gaps by purchasing stock for rare species. However, with specific regard to breed-and-release, it is also the case that you can never guarantee a released specimen will not introduce harmful or maladaptive genes into the local population, no matter how highly dispersive the species.

I'm sorry if this is not the answer you were hoping for, but it is my honest and earnest opinion. Get a camera and join the fun on UKB!

This has been a worthwhile discussion but I would like to point out one of the downsides.

I came across (on a garden plant) what I assumed was a Green-veined White larva.

Small and GV White larvae are very similar in appearance.

It was carefully looked after, pupated successfully and I assumed was set to hibernate. I then forgot about it.

I was away for a few days and when I checked on return, a Small White was dead in my breeding box. Maybe it was a member the [non-typical] third generation.

This was of course all most unfortunate but I have to reflect on the survival rate in the wild. My ‘careless’ death was nothing compared with what would have occurred in nature.

Jack

I agree completely with ernie and CallumMac. In fact, I'll go further and say what I suspect many forum members are thinking: this is a forum for people who appreciate butterflies, especially in the wild, and are very focused on conservation. The principle of killing butterflies, whether caught in the wild or reared to be killed, is unacceptable and distasteful.

Modern cameras are more than capable of capturing the beauty of butterflies in the wild without causing damage or distress.

I don’t think posts about killing butterflies have any place on this forum. There are organisations and web sites that cater for your particular predilections. This is just my view. It may not be shared by the moderators.

Roger

David - as to 'which fritillary?', I was wondering if there is any fritillary in the terms of Peter's article as being 'mobile' rather than living in a tight-knit community.


To those who say 'why not get a camera?' thanks, I should probably have done so when I was younger, but health greatly limits going for walks now, and eyesight is a problem, too.


Roger, apologies for trespassing on the wrong forum. You say there are organisations and websites which give guidance on breeding. Perhaps you could tell me a couple of them, and I won't trouble you any more!

I should have said - I'm off for a week's hols, so apols in advance for delay in replying to any posts.

johnclarke wrote:David - as to 'which fritillary?', I was wondering if there is any fritillary in the terms of Peter's article as being 'mobile' rather than living in a tight-knit community!

John, I suppose the only relatively mobile UK Fritillary would be Dark Green, but even that is more usually found in colonies.

I think there have been some slightly harsh responses on this topic.

Nowhere (unless I missed it) has anyone indicated that they might want to breed for the purpose of getting the perfect specimen for a collection.

Breeding of common species, for example the whites (except the scarce Wood White) for subsequent release as adults surely does little or no harm? John Clarke mentioned his reduced mobility and poor eyesight. For oldies like John and indeed also for youngsters, breeding can be a harmless and enjoyable pursuit. I still get a huge thrill watching my hibernated Peacocks or newly emerged Orange tips fly away in the spring to a happy life in the wild.

Jack

Jack Harrison wrote:I think there have been some slightly harsh responses on this topic.

Nowhere (unless I missed it) has anyone indicated that they might want to breed for the purpose of getting the perfect specimen for a collection.

Breeding of common species, for example the whites (except the scarce Wood White) for subsequent release as adults surely does little or no harm? John Clarke mentioned his reduced mobility and poor eyesight. For oldies like John and indeed also for youngsters, breeding can be a harmless and enjoyable pursuit. I still get a huge thrill watching my hibernated Peacocks or newly emerged Orange tips fly away in the spring to a happy life in the wild.

I think this is the comment that raised opprobrium, Jack (first post):

...But now I'd like to fill in some of the gaps, reasonably common butterflies and moths that I don't have in my collection, and wondered about breeding from egg, larva or pupa bought from a supplier. Presumably there's no objection to killing a butterfly you've bred yourself?

Hello Jack,

May I suggest that you have missed something. If you check the first post on this thread, it talks specifically about breeding to fill gaps in a collection and implies that there is no objection to killing butterflies that have been bred for that purpose.

I agree entirely with your comments about breeding and releasing (within the constraints that relate to the damage to existing populations - as made explicitly clear in CallumMac's post).

My point is that I do not consider it ethical to breed butterflies in order to kill them, and that I don't consider that "filling gaps in a collection" is an appropriate topic for these forums. By extension it implies that collecting per se is acceptable. Just my view.

Roger

Hold hands up! I had missed that first comment.

Jack

I think Jack's suggestions - whites (inc Orange-tip) or Peacock - are good ones, from the point of view that the immature stages of all of them can be fairly easily located in the field in most parts of the country. I still wouldn't advocate releasing purchased stock of any of them.

Back from hols, thank you everyone for comments. 2 things:

1. Roger said there are websites which cater for people wanting to breed butterflies. I'd be very grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction for one of these.

2. Re this website being just for those who want to photograph, fair enough, but perhaps the name of the website is a bit misleading, it sounds more general.

3. re those who find it unethical to kill insects for display, is this very much a personal thing, or do you have ethical arguments that could work with anyone else? I certainly wouldn't do it if I felt it was unethical. I realise one of the articles Peter gave a link for looked at this, though was inconclusive in it's result.

johnclarke wrote:Back from hols, thank you everyone for comments. 2 things:

1. Roger said there are websites which cater for people wanting to breed butterflies. I'd be very grateful if anyone could point me in the right direction for one of these.

2. Re this website being just for those who want to photograph, fair enough, but perhaps the name of the website is a bit misleading, it sounds more general.

3. re those who find it unethical to kill insects for display, is this very much a personal thing, or do you have ethical arguments that could work with anyone else? I certainly wouldn't do it if I felt it was unethical. I realise one of the articles Peter gave a link for looked at this, though was inconclusive in it's result.

1. The 'Lepidoptera Breeding and Rearing Discussion Group' on Facebook have been helpful to me when I've had questions about breeding Speckled Woods (for scientific research purposes). https://www.facebook.com/groups/Lepbreedingandrearing/

2. I don't really see a problem. It's a site for people who enjoy British butterflies in the wild. The strapline on the home page - "Building a Community of Responsible Butterfly Enthusiasts" (my bold font) - is a pretty accurate summary of the goals of many on here and might explain why the responses to your queries about killing butterflies have not been very positive!

3. I think there are two levels to this. The first is simple: is it ever acceptable to end the life of another living being solely for your own leisure/fun/art? My own view is 'no, absolutely not'. However, if that line of thought doesn't affect you, then the second is more abstract but probably more important. At the risk of repeating myself from above: breeding stock of butterflies has to come from somewhere. If you collect butterflies or their immature stages from the wild then that source is clearly wild stock and will risk damaging whichever population you collect from. If you purchase stock from a supplier of entomological livestock, the source is still wild stock in almost all cases, to within only two or three generations (this is because breeding lines can very quickly become inbred, leading to unwanted aberrations). It will therefore risk damaging whichever population it was collected from, with the added bonus that you have no idea which population that was (and some suppliers are notoriously unscrupulous with regards to conservation efforts). Put simply, it is virtually impossible to source rare species in a way that doesn't damage a wild population somewhere. And remember that even very widespread species often operate as a network of small, vulnerable populations in the landscape, so there is still a risk attached to collecting these. So, you have to ask yourself whether your ethics allow you to willfully contribute to damaging a wild population of butterflies.