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Hi folks,

Would be most grateful for opinions on the Id of the attached Erebia, photographed late July on scree/sparse grassland just above the Col de Larche on the French/Italian border at around 2050m. I was searching for Larche Ringlet without success, but found quite a few of these, which I assumed were Sooty Ringlet f.oreas. Having looked again am wondering if they could possibly be mnestra? Any comments very welcome. Thanks in anticipation!

Best wishes from an European mountain butterfly addict.

Pete

Do you have an underside, Pete?

Hi Pete.
It's not easy without seeing the underside, but my money is on gorge (Silky Ringlet). Would be interested to get some more experienced opinions though

John Chapple wrote:Hi Pete.
It's not easy without seeing the underside, but my money is on gorge (Silky Ringlet). Would be interested to get some more experienced opinions though

Interesting you should say that, John, as that was my first impression.

I reckon I saw this species last year at 2,800m but I need an underside to match things up.

Sadly i didn't manage to get an underside - they were flying up and down the scree slopes, hardly ever settling, and when they did settle briefly it was always somewhere inaccessible!
Behaviour-wise they were very much like previous Sooty Ringlets I have seen - must admit hadn't considered Silky...

I don't think this is mnestra. In mnestra the reddish band is farther from the margin and usually slightly concave between the veins on its outer margin. In addition, given that this looks like a male, the absence of any conspicuous reddish area at the end of the cell is very suspect. Above all, in my experience, it just looks wrong.

That only really leaves gorge and pluto. From the point of view of the position, shape and extent of the reddish areas, gorge is the number one choice. This is where trying to identify something from a single photo comes unstuck. In the field, gorge has quite a characteristic feel - not to mention the fact you usually get a glimpse of the underside. The picture does not transmit the feel of gorge, but rather, the feel of pluto. The scree context you describe also fits pluto. I agree there is too much red on the hindwing for this species, but I think that would still be where I would put my money, albeit, not much money. If you have any other pictures, even bad, humiliating, put-in-the-bin-quickly-before-anyone-else-sees-them pictures, it might help pin down the species. In the field, you can at least move your head ...

Guy

Many thanks Guy, John and David -
There are two more pics from this site - retrieved from the recycle bin Guy, just in case they offer any further clues!
Still think the general feel was pluto - I encountered several similar looking individuals at the col d'Izoard in the Queyras bacj in 2012, and they had identical behavioural patterns on the scree.

Last year, when I visited a site in SE France at 2800m, I saw nailed-on pluto but it had a companion on the scree slopes....I have never been able to absolutely determine what it was.

Here are uppers and unders:
Given the orange markings, it can't be pluto, and nor can it be pharte due to the underside.

After much scrutiny of my guide books, I tentatively settled on the erynis form of Silky Ringlet, which is the form found in this particular region.

The uppersides look similar to your specimen(s), but an underside would confirm.

I agree with you David. I still think they are gorge, the habitat sounds very similar to the area I encountered them near the Col de la Lombardie where pluto also occurres. As you know Pete, I initially thought they were mnestra's due to the shape of the red patches, until I saw the underside which being mottled only left me with gorge.

Thanks again John and David - I am now swaying towards gorge myself - there is a frustratingly small amount of hindwing just visible on one of my shots which when zoomed in might possibly have a slightly marbled tone to it.
To quote John Chapple - "Bloody Erebias!!".
I suspect now that both gorge and pluto were present at this site - there were several convincing examples of pluto flying which I didn't manage to photograph, and looking in the PACA atlas, the distribution of the two species mirror each other closely in this area.
If it is gorge it is my first photograph of this species so I would be happy with that! Unless Guy thinks differently?!
Happy days...