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I spotted this Fritillary last week here in SW Turkey.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
I am hoping it is an Algerian Fritillary!!!!!

I've ummed and aahed and can't reach a conclusion. It does look very like Algerian fritillary, though the outer margin is too sharply bent towards the apex, I think - but knapweed fritillary is such an incredibly variable species I don't think it suffices to look like Algerian frit. It also has to look in some way unlike knapweed frit - and I can't say that it does. Misha or Nik might know. Failing that, you need to get some photos of local knapweed frits too ...

Guy

Padfield wrote:I've ummed and aahed and can't reach a conclusion. It does look very like Algerian fritillary, though the outer margin is too sharply bent towards the apex, I think - but knapweed fritillary is such an incredibly variable species I don't think it suffices to look like Algerian frit. It also has to look in some way unlike knapweed frit - and I can't say that it does. Misha or Nik might know. Failing that, you need to get some photos of local knapweed frits too ...

Guy

Thanks Guy,I did find a couple of other frits one I think maybe is a Knapweed,
not sure about the other ,maybe Spotted ???
here are a couple of pics:~

Interesting! Their all in the phoebe group (knapweed, Algerian frit &c.) but I'll wait for one of the Eastern experts to give a view before I venture in there. If they don't come forward, I'll let you know my analysis!

Guy

Thanks Guy,
Just been looking through Fritillaries in Ahmet Baytas's book Butterflies of Turkey.
So many features are very alike with this species.
Help definitely needed with this one.

Well.... on minimal experience, so unqualified to comment, I would look at the convexity vs sinuous outer forewing edge to decide ?????

I would say the first and third ones are Melitaea ornata (Eastern Knapweed). I pass on the second one - it is either Knapweed (M. phoebe) or Eastern Knapweed (M. ornata). The underside allows definite id, as discussed in other threads - the characters are pretty obvious in SE European and Turkish individuals, so even a bad photo would be sufficient.

My tentative ids are still based on the black submarginal lunules on hindwing underside, since their characteristic shape can sometimes be seen on the upperside as well - partly because of the transparency of the wing, partly because ups black marks repeat uns shape. In the first and third photo, this is seen relatively well, but in the second photo there is nothing like that, so I pass.

Regarding systematics (at least the current version ): Algerian fritillary (Melitaea punica) occurs in North Africa only; Eastern Knapweed (Melitaea ornata) from Italy to Kazakhstan (and maybe further East?). Melitaea telona is a junior synonym to Melitaea ornata and should not be used. The European and Turkish populations belong to M. ornata.

What is the location of the third photo? Interesting to know.

Cheers!

Hi Nik,
Thankyou so much for all the detailed info.
I am a complete beginner and only started photographing butterflies this spring.
All the photogrpahs were taken here in SW Turkey near Cesme at the end of the Izmir peninsula.
I have managed to get a copy of Ahmet Beytas' book on Butterflies of Turkey,where he states that the Algerian Fritillary can be seen in all areas of Turkey ????? very confusing !!
There is no mention of the Eastern Knapweed Fritillary in his book whatsoever.
Unfortunately these are the only photographs I took of the butterflies.
I will definitely try to get underside shots in the future.
I also think I need better literature on the butterflies that can be seen in my area.
Thanks again for your help.
Bob

Hi Bob,

The books are not to blame for the confusion with the names - they just reflect the state of knowledge at the time. Zoological systematics evolves as our knowledge evolves, and lots of seemingly similar populations have recently been proven to actually belong to separate species. When this happens, the names attached to each species are determined from the available published names according to the rules of zoological nomenclature. If there is no available name of course a new description is required, but for butterflies so many regional forms have been described that this happens very rarely.

In the case of the phoebe-group, it was initially thought that the European, Asian and North-African populations all belonged to a single species - the Knapweed fritillary Melitaea phoebe. Then it was determined that there are morphologically distinct groups occurring in North Africa, Italy, E Europe, and W Asia (often together with typical M. phoebe); those were all lumped into the species M. punica (originally described as the North-African "form" of M. phoebe). Of course this did not happen instantaneously - there was a long debate with many refusing to accept the specific distinctness, but the debate was finally settled by DNA studies. Meanwhile, South- and East-European populations were often treated as a subspecies of M. punica under a variety of names: Melitaea punica telona, M. p. emipunica, M. p. ogygia, etc. It turned out eventually that the North African populations were genetically distinct than those occurring in Eurasia; in this case the name punica applies to the North African species since its description was based on North-African material. As for the Eurasian species, the rule is that the oldest available name should be used; recently (2011) it turned out that this was the overlooked name M. ornata (described from the Ural Mts). So now we have M. punica in N Africa, M. phoebe and M. ornata in Eurasia. Of course this might not be entirely final, so any books you buy may (and probably will) eventually become obsolete . And I omitted other members of the group for clarity.

Cheers,

Hi Nik,
Thank you so much for explaining everything to me,butterflies are certainly a difficult subject compared to birdwatching which is my other pastime.
I did go out looking for the fritillaries to try for underside shots ,but the weather has been very hot and windy so not much success.
I did manage to get one,which I think is a Lesser Spotted Fritillary,your confirmation on this one would be greatly appreciated as I would really like to get at least one correct ID.