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Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:18 pm
by Paul Harfield
Hi
Today I found an area where there were at least 10 Clouded Yellows flying
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Four of these were pale in colour and all females. I am assuming that they are
helice, but one in particular drew my attention. It was white on the upperside, was also very small about a third smaller than the others. The dark markings also seemed much heavier than the others. I have tried to take some backlit photos as per 'Padfield', not easy with my basic camera, but hopefully they are clear enough. I would appreciate comments/confirmation that they are
helice
Many thanks
![DSCN8386 - Copy.JPG (259.17 KiB) Viewed 843 times This was the first one I found. It was the same size as all the other 'normal' Clouded Yellows flying. It had very pale upperwings and seemed to have a particularly greenish underside.](./files/thumb_11661_8cbe0a1561188e36bb2babb8ae10ae57)
- This was the first one I found. It was the same size as all the other 'normal' Clouded Yellows flying. It had very pale upperwings and seemed to have a particularly greenish underside.
![DSCN8417 - Copy.JPG (244.81 KiB) Viewed 843 times This one was particularly small and pretty much white on the upperside and seemed to have heavier dark markings.](./files/thumb_11661_94377f7d99b5026b19ace7e512ed229a)
- This one was particularly small and pretty much white on the upperside and seemed to have heavier dark markings.
![DSCN8441 - Copy.JPG (257.09 KiB) Viewed 843 times This is the same butterfly from the opposite side showing some extra dark markings, possibly a deformity?](./files/thumb_11661_ac1fb61c3b7d0a2897932a41dfd5cb26)
- This is the same butterfly from the opposite side showing some extra dark markings, possibly a deformity?
![DSCN8443 - Copy.JPG (293.35 KiB) Viewed 843 times The same butterfly again this time not backlit](./files/thumb_11661_6db5880934ac629fc7337ec84af9f32c)
- The same butterfly again this time not backlit
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:26 pm
by David M
At the very least this looks like another helice.
Hopefully Guy or Roger will advise on the Pale Clouded Yellow possibilities.
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:28 pm
by grumpy
I'd go with Helice, but I'm sure there are much more experienced folks on here than me !!
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:44 pm
by Pete Eeles
Definitely all
helice, and nice shots too
Cheers,
- Pete
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:54 pm
by Padfield
I'd agree 100% with helice for both individuals. The backlit shots are conclusive for the second individual - so well done for getting those! The first individual is a little less obviously helice but is very obviously not pale clouded or Berger's - so it must be helice. The greenish tinge noted is a good sign too, and the overall appearance leaves me in no doubt at all.
Surely a pale clouded yellow must turn up soon with all these clouded yellows. If and when it does, I'm sure it will stand out like a sore thumb! I think I can honestly say I've never had any doubt in the field between crocea and hyale/alfacariensis - the only difficulty comes in separating the latter two.
Guy
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:58 pm
by David M
padfield wrote:
Surely a pale clouded yellow must turn up soon with all these clouded yellows. If and when it does, I'm sure it will stand out like a sore thumb! I think I can honestly say I've never had any doubt in the field between crocea and hyale/alfacariensis - the only difficulty comes in separating the latter two.
I take it that the backlit shot shows the outer black forewing band to be quite broad all the way down in
helice whereas in Pale/Berger's it would taper quite abruptly?
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:07 pm
by Padfield
David M wrote:I take it that the backlit shot shows the outer black forewing band to be quite broad all the way down in helice whereas in Pale/Berger's it would taper quite abruptly?
Yes. In
hyalensis (my word for alfy and
hyale) the dark border tapers to outside the row of pd spots:
![Image](http://www.guypadfield.com/images2007/alfacariensis076.jpg)
(alfy)
Guy
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:10 pm
by David M
It's so obvious when you see it. Sadly, we UK residents see it either once every Preston Guild or not at all!
Thanks for the tutorial, Guy.
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:11 pm
by MikeOxon
padfield wrote:very obviously not pale clouded or Berger's
For those of us a bit behind the curve, your more recent post has helped a lot
Mike
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:31 pm
by Paul Harfield
Hi All
Thanks for the quick responses. Thanks Guy for the detailed comparison and for the pointer on how to photograph for the purposes of id on these species.
I take it, from what I have seen today, that there is quite considerable colour variation in the degree of
helice that an individual displays
I will keep on looking and hopefully that Pale Clouded Yellow will turn up, now I know what to look for
![Wink :wink:](./images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:37 pm
by Pete Eeles
And the distinction can be very subtle. Guy's image is, I believe, of a male
hyalensis (like it!). The females have darker borders which can run very close to the line of spots (and not always outside them), as in this (I believe to be)
hyale:
Cheers,
- Pete
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:04 pm
by Padfield
That's an interesting picture, Pete!
Are you sure there's no other shadow playing a role there? The dark band on the hindwing doesn't correspond to any markings on the upperside and I suspect that the forewing shadow is a continuation of the same thing - or at least, the pattern is somewhat obscured by this.
A useful indicator is the pale spot in s.3. In
crocea this will be fully enclosed in the dark border while in
hyalensis it will be open on the inside. If you take away the spurious (as I see it) shadow on the forewing, I think this spot is still open in Pete's picture. I agree, the dark border is quite broad even so (and it is broader in
hyale than alfy) but it is not complete inside the pd spots.
Here is a female upperside - again of alfy, not
hyale:
Guy
EDIT - looking at other pictures, the spot in s.3 may be narrowly bounded internally in
hyalensis but that in s.2 never is. In
crocea both are fully enclosed.
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:09 pm
by Pete Eeles
Oops! Absolutely right, Guy - for some reason I blotted the "other" shadow out of my mind! Anyway, I've drawn what I meant on the lady below, to clarify what I see as the edge of the black markings on the forewing.
Cheers,
- Pete
Re: Help With Clouded Yellow IDs Please
Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:17 am
by Mark Tutton
Hi All
Given the numbers of CY turning up at the moment - I visited four sites yesterday and they were present at every site - Pale/Bergers must surely turn up next. A potential was reported in June from Hampshire, by an experieced observer, but unfortunately no photo. In fact I thought that would be the next question I would have raised rather than a picture of a LTB
The weather is set fair this week so I need to find a nice big Lucerne field
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
I'll be trying hard as the opportunity to specifically look doesn't come around very often
Mark
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)