www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

I saw this Skipper at Aston Rowlant NNR yesterday, I must concede defeat on a definite ID I'm happy with, your help would be much appreciated along with any ID pointers please.

Regards,

Bill

The drum stick shaped, dark antennae suggest Essex to me. Smalls seem to have a curved edge to their antennae with bits sticking out the end if that makes sense

Have a goodun

Wurzel

Thanks Wurzel,

The thing that's throwing me is that rather unusual wing marking. There's no sign of any male sex brands and female Essex's are usual plain winged, the antennae would suggest Essex (your bits sticking out of the end on SS makes perfect sense, but is really far too technical for me ). Perhaps the UK B's 'Big Guns' will have something to add...

Best Wishes,

Bill

Hi Bill,

A difficult one from that angle but I would cautiously go for female Essex. The dark wing borders extending in along the veins suggest Essex to me although this is not definitive as does Wurzels description of the antennae shape, again not definitive but I understand what he means

Mind you I have been known to get these wrong

Cheers,

Neil F.

Many thanks Neil,

This is a rather tough one to call, I think I may just go along with both you and Wurzel ...Essex Skipper it is then...unless someone has another suggestion that is

Kindest Regards,

Bill

Willrow wrote:unless someone has another suggestion that is

Try zooming in on the tips of the antennae in the original photo.

I did this on your posted image (reduced for the web, of course) and there do seem to be hints of yellow at the very tips, which would mean Small. On the reduced image, these could, of course, be compression artefacts, so have a good look at the original.

There's a rather similar thread at viewtopic.php?t=7071&start=10000 where a subsequent photo made it definitely Small. As I commented on the other thread, I wish someone could find something definitive about the top-sides

Mike

Wurzel wrote:Smalls seem to have a curved edge to their antennae with bits sticking out the end

I guess you mean like this:
Unfortunately, they are not all like this. For example:
Mike

I naturally zoomed in on the original image prior to posting Mike, no real luck there, its simply one of those images that because of the position the insect posed when the photograph was taken has caused problems. The actual wing markings interested me as much if not more than the antennae, even allowing for the fact that the antennae tips are the key ID feature in ES for both sexes.

Frustratingly, I've not had the opportunity (or luck!) this year to get a situation when any potential Essex Skipper has posed for me 'antennae on', but this ID thread concentrates the mind on particular salient points to ponder.

Thanks as always for your helpful input.

Regards,

Bill

PS. The background doesn't actually help as it has a rather brownish colour in line with the antennae tips, I usually try for a good plain contrast background colour, no luck on this occasion.

Thank you for describing my post as helpful, Willrow. I wish I could find something to really help wth Essex ID

I recall you wrote that you were puzzled by the markings on the wings but, looking at the Species pages on this website, I see that the female example photographed by Iain Leach has similar dark bands running across the veins. These don't seem so obvious on any of the Small Skipper photos but I expect someone will be able to show some exceptions. It just might help tip things in favour of Essex.

There must be something in the lifestyle of these butterflies that led to their speciation but I suppose this could be expressed in the larval stages rather than the adult. I suppose we should count ourselves lucky that there are so few 'problem IDs' in the UK. When I look at the increase in diversity just a little further South in Europe I realise that we have it pretty easy here

Mike

Hi willrow - I think a worn Small male. The sex brand is a bit indistinct, probably doing its job shedding scales, but it is curving away from the wing edge and vaguely 's' shaped. In Essex it is snormally straight and parallel to the wing edge.
Mark

Hi Bill.

A difficult one as the most useful diagnostic feature, the antennae, are not clearly visible. For me this is an aged female Essex.

Kind regards. Mark

Tuts wrote: I think a worn Small male

The body shape looks distinctly female to me

Mike

The differences between Small and Essex Skipper are graphically explained in the 'Similar Species' sections of the SS and ES UKB species pages - see here http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/species. ... sylvestris These age-old criteria remain the only way of confidently differentiating the species, a task best done in the field. Images of female butterflies shot from above, giving no clue as to pigmentation of the underside of the tips of the antennae, remain undiagnostic.
BWs, Neil

Sussex Kipper wrote:These age-old criteria remain the only way of confidently differentiating the species

I agree that those pages give the only discriminators we know. They describe the differences in the wings of males but don't say there is no difference between the females. I just live in hope of someone, perhaps with access to a large collection, spotting something but I'm sure many experts have pondered this one over the years.

Mike

Thanks to everyone for their input, this type of response is what makes UK Butterflies the excellent resource it is.

I'm afraid the jury will remain out on this one, the most positive diagnostic feature - the antennae tips - is undefined in this particular image and its probably unfair to expect any further input...that's of course unless your enjoying the thread and have further to add

My appreciation,

Bill

Sussex Kipper wrote:Images of female butterflies shot from above, giving no clue as to pigmentation of the underside of the tips of the antennae, remain undiagnostic.

Well said that man

Cheers,

- Pete

Sussex Kipper wrote:The differences between Small and Essex Skipper are graphically explained in the 'Similar Species' sections of the SS and ES UKB species pages - see here http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/species. ... sylvestris These age-old criteria remain the only way of confidently differentiating the species, a task best done in the field. Images of female butterflies shot from above, giving no clue as to pigmentation of the underside of the tips of the antennae, remain undiagnostic.
BWs, Neil

This is absolutely true.

I would just like to add that I find some of these discussions interesting and although the diagnostic features are well known by many, there is often an 'indefinable something' that leads people one way or the other in cases where the known features are not in clear view.
It is reading peoples opinions in threads such as this that often opens my eyes to features that I was previously unaware of, some of which may be far from definitive but interesting none the less.

As Bill says, this type of thread, where different opinions get thrown in, are part of what makes these forums such a great place and one which I enjoy visiting on such a regular basis.

All the best,

Neil F.