www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

Two quick questions for the experts out there...

Firstly, this Duke of Burgundy taken at Noar Hill about a week ago looks very orange, particularly on the fore-wings. Is this within the normal range of variation or does it count as an aberrant?

And secondly, what on earth is this insect, taken in Chiddingfold Forest yesterday (25th May)? It was pretty big, an inch or more long.

Thanks

Clive

To your first question: she is not a Duke but a Duchess - and as such, well within the normal range of variation.

I'll leave the second question to the fly and bee experts ...

Guy

Hi Mildheart.

Your unidentified insect appears to be the Large Birch Sawfly (Cimbex femoratus); a great find.

Kind regards. Mark

Thanks Mark and Guy

Just been looking up the sawfly on the interweb - if only I had such luck with Grizzled Skipper....

Regards

Clive

padfield wrote:To your first question: she is not a Duke but a Duchess - and as such, well within the normal range of variation.

Hi Guy - on the abs. page we have a few females marked as ab.gracilens: http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/aberrati ... ies=lucina

I'm wondering if they're also "normal" and would appreciate your thoughts. Here's one from the Cockayne collection:

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/ ... scientific

Cheers,

- Pete

I'll defer to the Kipper and others who have really studied this species, Pete!

I regularly come across females looking like this and believed it to be normal. Here is one, for example, photographed in 2010:



Both she and Clive's butterflies seem to match ab. gracilens perfectly - so maybe this is what they are. If so, I would suggest that this is, here in Switzerland at least, a relatively frequent aberration - perhaps like 'ab.' caerulopunctata in small coppers.

Over to the experts!

Guy

I've looked through recent pictures and have discovered that I mostly photograph males! But the females I have on record all look pretty much like this. I didn't take any females in 2012 and the ones in 2010 only show part of their wings. Here is one from 2009:



... and another from that year at a quite different location:



Am I missing something, or are all these gracilens?

Guy

EDIT: No females in 2008. This is from 2007:

Hi guy - is your 2009 duke a male? The shape of the left forewing looks very pointed - or it may be the angle as you cannot see the right one? If so it is very orange particularly on the hindwings - Mark

You're right - and my 2007 butterfly might be male too, on those grounds. I didn't record the sex with the pictures and am just looking through my online piccies to see how common that very orange look is. It is certainly not rare!

As I said, I'm very happy to defer to the experts on this. Clive's butterfly would not be at all out of place in a Swiss population, as you can see - but beyond that I can't say.

Guy

Hi all,
My own quote taken from “A Complete History of the Butterflies and Moths of Sussex” (Pratt, C. R., 2011) reads “.... but the observer regarded the form [ab. gracilens] “as being neither rare nor particularly aberrant” during the modern era in West Sussex.” So in my opinion it falls on the outer limit of natural variation, and barely warrants being named.
Best Wishes, Neil

I agree - thanks Guy / Neil. A female that isn't gracilens would seem to be a rarity

Cheers,

- Pete

Hi all,

Whilst in the mountains above the Tinee vallee in France last week we saw a very large Duke approximately the size of a speckled wood? Is this normal out there as we have never seen one so big before?

Also the Large Whites were incredibly big also, any thoughts?

Pete Withers wrote:Whilst in the mountains above the Tinee vallee in France last week we saw a very large Duke approximately the size of a speckled wood? Is this normal out there as we have never seen one so big before?

Are you sure it wasn't a Speckled Wood, which can be quite orange? Here's one from Spain:
Cheers,

- Pete

They look too much like dukes to me Pete..............

I don't think there is anything similar they can be?

Ah! I didn't realise you had photos! Definitely Dukes. The female is a real corker, although it's hard to get an indication of size from a photo. Some of her markings on the hindwings definitely look "stretched"!

Cheers,

- Pete

Hi all
I too came across a female duke at Butser that I estimated to be about 20% larger than a normal female. I took some photos but unfortunately there are no reference points to gauge size interestly in my tour of OMNH I was able to view some female orange tips that were about half the size of that which you would normally expect. I guess there is always some normal variation but this duke definitely caught they eye.
Mark