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Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:14 am
by CJB
In French Alps.
Good morning UKB'ers,
Having just cycled 300 miles across the Alps for Help For Heroes last week (casually dropped in), I managed to steal a bit of time before the start to wander up the mountain. There were Clouded Yellows and Helice(?), plus two fritillaries which I am keen to have identified but I think are Small PBF and HBF??? Technically they can't be firsts for me as they are not on UK soil, but I did capture them on my mobile!
Flutter on!
CJB
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:44 am
by Paul Wetton
On first impression the frits look like Dark Green and High Brown. Both look like Argynnis species. The first has a very straight row of spots across the forewing excluding the first or outer spot. The second has a slightly inwardly displaced third spot (from the outer edge of the wing) and the hind edge of the forewing looks concave indicating High Brown. I won't comment on the Clouded Yellows as I have trouble with these but you're probably correct with your IDs.
All the best.
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 1:45 pm
by CJB
Thank you Paul!
Much appreciated.
Flutter on!
CJB
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:07 pm
by David M
I'd agree with Paul regarding the Frits, especially the High Brown. The other has the look of Dark Green but the black markings are nonetheless a bit scantier than I am used to seeing. The latter Pierid is too dark to be anything other than Clouded Yellow but the other could easily be Berger's or Pale.
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:35 am
by CJB
Thank you David!
I was trying to read numbers off the wing which is what I have seen reported on this site when referring to SPBF and PBF.
To me it looks like there is a '135' on the fore-wing or even '356', but I can't remember what number was eluded to previously!
I would be interested to know what the paler of the two yellows is. They were about in equal numbers to the clouded.
Flutter on!
CJB
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:13 pm
by David M
CJB wrote:Thank you David!
I was trying to read numbers off the wing which is what I have seen reported on this site when referring to SPBF and PBF.
To me it looks like there is a '135' on the fore-wing or even '356', but I can't remember what number was eluded to previously!
I would be interested to know what the paler of the two yellows is. They were about in equal numbers to the clouded.
Flutter on!
CJB
Dark Green and High Brown Fritillaries are much larger than Pearl and Small Pearl Bordered. Generally, the undersides provide the definitive identification but there are subtle differences on the uppersides too.
Regarding the Yellows, things are a bit more complicated as they always rest wings closed. I think Guy Padfield knows a trick to separate Pale from Berger's but I certainly wouldn't be able to distinguish between them. In addition, the female
helice version of Clouded Yellow looks very similar to both these species and if I'm honest I think I'd need to catch them in a net to stand a chance of positively identifying them.
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:01 pm
by Pete Eeles
Has Niobe Fritillary for the first individual been ruled out? If so, I'd like to know why
Cheers,
- Pete
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:28 pm
by David M
Pete Eeles wrote:Has Niobe Fritillary for the first individual been ruled out? If so, I'd like to know why
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
Could well be Niobe, Pete. I'd be hard pressed to say on upperwing evidence alone though.
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:17 pm
by CJB
Thank you for your responses David and Pete.
I await your conclusions!
Flutter on!
CJB
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:23 pm
by Paul Wetton
Niobe Frit has the third spot from the wing edge displaced inwards same as HBF. I'll stick with DGF for this one.
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:34 pm
by Pete Eeles
Then we'll have to wait for an adjudication
![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
The
niobe shots I've seen are a right mixed bag with that 3rd spot being inconclusive.
I was going on the convex (not concave) shape of the forewing.
Where's Padders?
Cheers,
- Pete
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:16 pm
by Padfield
I'll gladly chip in - though not as adjudicator!
![Very Happy :D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
And sorry for not doing so earlier. For various reasons this is an exceptionally busy term.
I think this upperside is compatible with either
niobe or
aglaja but I incline strongly towards
niobe. The upper three pd spots, which others have mentioned, while not conclusive, are typically more or less colinear in
aglaja but make an obtuse angle in
niobe, as in this butterfly. The line itself tends to descend broadly parallel to the margin in
aglaja but to migrate basally in
niobe, as here. None of this is absolute or constant across the range but it does make me prefer
niobe in this instance. As well as this, the general appearance fits
niobe very well, with rather light markings (they can be extremely heavy in
niobe, of course, which is a very variable species, but in my experience are rarely this light in
aglaja). The wing shape in both species is typically slightly convex, as distinct from being slightly concave in
adippe - certainly, the wing shape here fits
niobe.
I think this is a male but no sex brands are really visible here, unfortunately. Both species can have very weak sex brands on occasion so I don't think any conclusions can be drawn from the fact none can be seen.
Guy
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:37 pm
by Pete Eeles
Thanks for the detailed explanation Guy. A few more diagnostics to throw into the mix!
Cheers,
- Pete
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:14 pm
by MikeOxon
Pete Eeles wrote:Where's Padders?
You just had to rub the magic lamp
Mike
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:32 pm
by David M
MikeOxon wrote:Pete Eeles wrote:Where's Padders?
You just had to rub the magic lamp
Mike
Quite right too.
Guy seems to have an instinct that the rest of us can only dream of.
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:23 pm
by Padfield
I'm flattered by the attention ... but I am
very often wrong and have learnt a lot from reading others' observations on this site! I'm quite happy to be overruled in this or any case.
I also find that an instinct in the field doesn't always translate into an instinct for identifying from photos. Sometimes, when I've stared at the same picture for a while I stop being able to see it with an intuitive eye, as when you repeat a word until it becomes meaningless ('semantic satiation'). In the field, the same species would be identified without reflection in a glance.
Guy
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 7:28 pm
by Roger Gibbons
I would be inclined to go for
niobe. The hindwing arch-shaped submarginal marks are quite thin which strongly points to
niobe, whereas in
aglaja they are usually much thicker, almost appearing solid. There is variation, as usual, but this does seem reasonably consistent.
I am not entirely convinced that it is a male; the body shape suggest male but the body length suggests female (the male body length seems noticeably and consistently longer). The apparent absence of any sex brands suggests male, but this is unclear and would be a conclusive indicator for
adippe where the male sex brands are unmistakeably thick. The markings are generally quite heavy for
niobe which also suggests female, and it seems almost identical to this one which I am 100% certain is
niobe:
http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... ar_28May07
Re: Clouded Yellows..............
Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:01 pm
by CJB
Wow UK B'ers, thank you for all the responses.
I bumped into Sussex Kipper today at Steyning in search of BHS, who said he thought it was a niobe and a HBF.
Thank you for all your thoughts!
Flutter on!
CJB