www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

As I mentioned in Susie's Denbies thread I went there for the first time last Sunday (14th August). Lovely place... masses of critters.

Anyhoo, being a resident of the Northern half of England it's rare that I get a chance to see chalkhill blues and an even rarer treat to see adonis. Consquently (and I'm getting my excuses in early), I find it hard to reliably differentiate between the females of these two species. I've read all that stuff about blue scales near the spots on the hindwings of the adonis... but these features aren't always so clear on faded specimens. My plea for anyone to post pictures of second brood female adonis from the site went unheeded... probably because it seems to be early in their flight period.

Piers, very kindly offered to give me some help with IDs... so... here are a few example photos of 'brown' females taken from my visit to site. Of course, everyone else is also invited to cast an eye and offer their opinions. I'm sure they're mostly, if not entirely, chalkhills... but I'd be very pleased if I had managed to capture the odd adonis.

There are further examples (about 30 photos - though some are of the same individuals) on my Flikr Photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/16155010@N04/). Currently they are on page 1, all starting with a code like P1120258-6by4.

Thanks in anticipation, celery


1.


2.


3.


4.


5.


6.


7.


8.


I think this is the same individual as 8.


9.


10.


11.


12.


13.


14.


probably same individual as 14.


15.

Hi Celery,

On first glance I would say most of those are Adonis....here's my go!

1) Could be either, but I think Chalkhill
2) Probably Adonis
3) With bright blue scales like that it has to be Adonis
4) Chalkhill
5) Chalkhill, but there are some bright blue scales near the centre, so could be Adonis
6) Same as 3
7) I think Adonis
Same as 3
9) Same butterfly as 8
9) Same as 3
10) had to say, likely Chalkhill?
11) Some more bright blue scales, so Adonis, although looks more Chalkhill...
12) Same as 3
13) Same as 3
14) I think Adonis
15 ) Same as 3

NB - I could very well be wrong though.

Cheers

Lee

I think the only photo that is remotely Adonis is #9, and even that might be Chalkhill.

This is based on the scales between the red spots on the hindwing, and the outer edge (white for Chalkhill and blue for Adonis) and the overall colour and condition (Adonis 2nd brood will be much fresher than Chalkhill, in general).

Cheers,

- Pete

I did say I might be wrong.....

What about the brighter blue scales mid wing on a few individuals though?

Cheers

Lee

Lee Hurrell wrote:What about the brighter blue scales mid wing on a few individuals though?

Hi Lee,

As far as I'm aware, that's not a diagnostic feature. Looking at my photos, most Chalkhill females have a few blue scales.

Cheers,

- Pete

Before I read Pete's comment I thought all were Chalkhills - I did notice that number 4 looked odd - with the lower spots on the underwing joining together to make an arc. I saw and photographed one like that a week or two ago and Piers helped me out and identified it as arcuata.
Hope that helps
Have a goodun

Wurzel

I must admit I didn't want post the first reply here as its very tricky.

The only fresh looking butterflies are likely to be Adonis and I agree with Pete, the most likely candidate is No. 9. The orange lunules appear to take a larger % of the space around the dark spots but to be certain I'd like a close up of the pale area between the orange and the wing edge to see if any blue is present, even a couple of blue scales would do it.. It looks like a female Adonis I filmed at Mill Hill last year that had hardly any blue on it at all.

The rest look like Chalkhill but No. 14 is pretty fresh as well. The shape of the lunules on the hindwing look more like Chalkhill though.

Sorry celery for using the jizz of these to take a stab at ID's but I had the same problems as you last year and found that often the jizz and finding blue scales on the outer portion of the spotting on the edge of the hindwing were the only way to get the ID.

My vote is that they are all chalkhills. I don't see adonis there.

Although having said that I would like to have seen the underside of No.9....

Personally, I'm not very comfortable with using the blue scale/white scale below the marginal lunules on the upperside as a hard and fast diagnostic feature either...

Piers.

Pete Eeles wrote:I think the only photo that is remotely Adonis is #9

Number 6 looks very similar to #9 to me and I'd be interested to know why you reject it, Pete.

I have always found this separation very difficult and am not convinced about the 'textbook' blue spots as, even when I've been sure of the identity, by looking at pairs, the colour of the hindwing spots hasn't been obvious! I haven't visited Denbies, so don't know what the mix of species is like there - I've been lucky in that most sites I've visited in the past seemed to have had one or the other.

Mike

#6 just 'feels' like a chalkhill, and just doesn't look like a female adonis. Check out the species pages, they're quite different to look at and even more so in 'real life'.

Piers.

Thanks for all your replies so far...

Just in case it helps clarify the issue, here's a (very blurry) underside shot of the individual in the picture labelled #9

MikeOxon wrote:

Pete Eeles wrote:I think the only photo that is remotely Adonis is #9

Number 6 looks very similar to #9 to me and I'd be interested to know why you reject it, Pete.

Benefit of the doubt Like Piers, are was just scanning the overall "feel" and this came closest to Adonis for me. If I'd only applied my own rule - it would have ruled it out. But I also agree with Piers that the colour of the scales on the hindwing is a subtle difference at best.

I agree - another Chalkhill.

Cheers,

- Pete

I'm with the consensus (sorry Lee!). My immediate reaction was that they were all chalkhill blues, but I hadn't the heart to say so, especially after Lee's enthusiastic response!

Even after browsing through them more carefully I can't find anything to make me change that first impression.

I suggest going south in May next year, Celery.

Guy

celery wrote:Thanks for all your replies so far...

Just in case it helps clarify the issue, here's a (very blurry) underside shot of the individual in the picture labelled #9

That just couldn't be more 'chalkhill' if it tried...!

Piers.

This one has no blue scales that I can see in the relevant gap next to the orange lunules. The photo was taken on 7th May at Denbies, so it can only be Adonis - just to illustrate how unreliable the "rule" is.
I've found that a good tactic is to visit somewhere like Aston Rowant and get your eye in for Chalkhill females, then go to Denbies soon afterwards - you find you can spot the difference quite reliably when you then see both together.

Dave

Anyone know what a female ab. polonus looks like?

Cheers,

- Pete

millerd wrote:This one has no blue scales that I can see in the relevant gap next to the orange lunules. The photo was taken on 7th May at Denbies, so it can only be Adonis - just to illustrate how unreliable the "rule" is.
I've found that a good tactic is to visit somewhere like Aston Rowant and get your eye in for Chalkhill females, then go to Denbies soon afterwards - you find you can spot the difference quite reliably when you then see both together.

Dave

That's a very typical adonis pose as well... compare with the chalkhills above.

That's an intersting individual, millerd. It ticks many of the boxes for chalkhill. The wing shape is good for Adonis and another thing, not often noted, is the detail of the hinwing lunules. In chalkhill, these are typically bordered internally with a relatively well defined black crescent. In Adonis this crescent is more diffuse and often invisible, perhaps because of the more sooty ground colour. I think this feature contributes to the jizz of the butterfly. It makes the Adonis female look more uniform and neater.

Guy

padfield wrote:That's an intersting individual, millerd. It ticks many of the boxes for chalkhill.

you mean adonis surely...

And I'll post again this splendid Chalkhill female that Susie spotted on the Denbies walk a fortnight ago, plus a more typical individual. (Someone's going to tell us these are both Adonis, but I really don't think they are!)

Dave