Personality types?

[Susie]

I just wondered if there is a particular personality type or trait which is predominant in people who are interested in butterflies. I know this is very general but there seem to be quite a few people on here with a science, mathetical or educational career and more than a fair few listers. I am not quite sure where I'm going with this but just wondered if this is why there seem to be far more men involved in this as a hobby.

[Piers]

Can I ask what a 'lister' is? Is it someone who leans to one side?

[Susie]

I'll restrain myself from making a "Red Dwarf" comment. I just meant people who like to make lists of what they have seen.

[Padfield]

The first thing Adam does when the animals are brought to him is name them all (Genesis chapter 2, verse 19).

The first thing Eve does is start TALKING to them, beginning with the serpent... (Genesis chapter 3, verse 1).

A fine mess that got us into.

Guy

[Gibster]

And the third son of Adam and Eve was...Seth, which is me!!! So I guess listing is in my genes!

Gibster - aka Seth Gibson, a manic lister

[Lee Hurrell]

Ah so that's why your avatar picture is who it is Susie....

Cheers

Lee

[Roger Gibbons]

Not Deb Lister, Susie, the female mirror image of Lister?

Probably the best Red Dwarf episode ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8Pr7dSw ... re=related

[David M]

It's a fair question, but sadly one I don't have the answer to.

What I will say is that from my experiences on this forum (in contrast to others whose themes I have an interest in) there is an abnormally large percentage of highly intelligent human beings who often have significant scientific ability. Even amongst those who don't, this subject appears to appeal to those with enquiring minds; people who wish to look deeper into what is a very complex area in spite of them not always having the academic background to do so.

It also seems to attract those with a highly principled attitude towards conservation and nature in general which is, in my opinion, a noteworthy and commendable stance.

I won't name them but there are a handful of people on this forum that I hold in extremely high esteem, even though I have never met them personally.

[Padfield]

I agree with David - either Pete operates some kind of admissions policy or butterflies attract top people (top in all different sorts of way).

I toyed briefly with four-dimensional Rubik cubing a few years back. The list of solvers (http://www.superliminal.com/cube/halloffame.htm) is populated almost exclusively by males, with a very few notable exceptions. These include the woman who runs the group: the very pleasant, attentive and almost maternal Melinda Green. When I made a posting similar to Susie's, wondering whether this was a peculiarly male activity, Melinda replied, beginning her answer with the words, 'When I was a boy...'. She did, indeed, start out life as a male and is refreshingly open and honest about her reassignment.

Not even the wonders of modern surgery can take the obsessive nerd out of the boy!

I should stress, though, that (a) some girls are also obsessive nerds and (b) obsessive nerdery is only one (not particularly important) expression of the love of butterflies!!

Guy

[millerd]

I find that if I mention my hobby at work, my male and female colleagues take an equal interest. Of those that do not, the men seem baffled by the non "manly" pursuit of nature, and the ladies admit that they are actually scared of butterflies! However, the majority of both sexes take an interest.

It would be true to say that (as examples) the majority of stamp collectors, and of trainspotters are definitely men. Both hobbies are classic list-making activities, ticking things off sometimes to the point of obsession. I would admit that I would like to see every British butterfly species - and hopefully I will - but am am still happy to see the ones I've seen before all over again and appreciate their exquisite beauty afresh. I suspect that having the long winter break contributes to this! If I get to western Scotland it will be a bonus to tick off the Chequered Skipper, but I shall be pleased to see anything else up there as well. I have a memory from July last year of a posse of eager camera-wielders clustered in the dust around a Purple Emperor whilst I watched a delicately beautiful Wood White laying eggs a couple of metres away.

I'm not quite sure what my point was now!

Dave

[Susie]

Not Deb Lister, Susie, the female mirror image of Lister?

Probably the best Red Dwarf episode ever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8Pr7dSw ... re=related

The female Rimmer made me hoot

I'd like to echo David M and Padfield's comments above, I'm not quite sure what makes the people on here generally such a splendid bunch but it is without doubt that you are.

And well done Guy, you've got a splendid score on something I couldn't even begin to comprehend!

I also wonder how many of the lovely ladies on here are male brained (rather than gender reassigned) and also how many people are within the autistic spectrum.

[David M]

Further to points raised earlier, I would like to add something to one that I missed, i.e. the predominance of males being serious enthusiasts.

I read in a book recently (it may well have been Jeremy Thomas & Richard Lewington's 'Butterflies of Britain and Ireland') a quote from way back which postulated that with butterflies being such delicate and beautiful living creatures, capturing and thus temporarily 'possessing' them was largely something that would be of more appeal to men. I don't know whether this is true, but it is certainly an interesting thought.

I think most people would agree that the primeval instinct to 'collect' and 'score' is much more prevalent in males, probably with it fitting into the category marked 'hunting'. Perhaps this explains why it seems to be men rather than women who are more prone to become deeply interested.

I also believe there are practical reasons though. For instance, in July I will be going to France for a week to an area I am unfamiliar with. I will be simply taking off into the hills alone every day armed only with water, camera and notebook. Now, I daresay most women would be rather more wary of doing something like that alone - you never know who/what's lurking round the next corner. Butterflying is by definition an outdoor pursuit, and it is generally one that is undertaken 'off the beaten track', away from areas of population/activity.

Personally, I think it's quite a difficult interest to admit to having. A lot of people think you're a geek, some think you're gay and others a pervert (honestly, these are remarks I've had levelled at me - maybe understandably given that I'm never happier than when staking out a favourable looking territory far away from suburbia with just a camera in my hands and a look of unbridled anticipation on my face!!)

It's certainly not a hobby that you can 'impress the girls with'. Still, I don't care. As I once said to a former girlfriend when she was berating me for spending yet another sunny weekend out in the field: "Which would you prefer, me going out looking for butterflies or going down the pub every night watching football incessantly, ending up in fights and cheating on you with other girls whilst drunk?"

There was a pause of a few seconds before she replied: "butterflies, I suppose".

[Gibster]

The list of solvers (http://www.superliminal.com/cube/halloffame.htm) is populated almost exclusively by males, with a very few notable exceptions

My own passion is birds. Casual birdwatching is a pastime enjoyed by both men, women, boys and girls of all ages and ability. Possibly more men than women take up the hobby but nothing too untoward. However, the twitching fraternity (which is decidedly non-casual!) is disproportionately male dominated. But there are women twitchers and their ranks are slowly swelling. Back in the 80s a female twitcher was probably rarer than the avian vagrants were, whereas nowadays they are part of the scene, if still somewhat outnumbered by the chaps. We've all heard that males are genetically driven to 'collect' and 'gather' whilst females are genetically programmed to 'nurture' and 'care' hence most obsessives are males. It's an oft-quoted theory, so don't shoot the messenger!!!

The one aspect that has repeatedly struck me is the almost complete lack of birdwatchers of an ethnic minority. Why is this? In some 25 years of active birding I can honestly say that I've seen less than 5 black birders and maybe ten Asians. And thousands of Caucasians. Yet some of the worlds best bird guides are those operating in south-east Asia and middle Africa. Why the huge discrepancy over here I'm not sure. Looking back over the years I can categorically state that I have yet to see a non-Caucasian butterfly enthusiast anywhere in Britain. I'm not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't seen them. In this day and age I find that difficult to comprehend. Wildlife is open to all races, colours and creeds. Do other members have thoughts on the matter?

Gibster.

[Padfield]

Looking back over the years I can categorically state that I have yet to see a non-Caucasian butterfly enthusiast anywhere in Britain. I'm not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't seen them. In this day and age I find that difficult to comprehend. Wildlife is open to all races, colours and creeds. Do other members have thoughts on the matter?

A possible solution to the paradox would be that in the UK non-Caucasians are disproportionately concentrated in urban areas and under-represented in the countryside.

Guy

[Susie]

A few years ago when I was first becoming interested in butterflies and other insects I tried explaining to some work colleagues why I was so keen and they just didn't get it at all. One, despite being born in Bradford, whose parents came from Pakistan basically regarded all insect life as dangerous and scary. The idea that it could be thought of as fascinating and beautiful was incomprehensible.

I came from an suburban area and went to school with many children from ethnic minorities but none of them shared my passion for nature.

[Susie]

Further to points raised earlier, I would like to add something to one that I missed, i.e. the predominance of males being serious enthusiasts.

I read in a book recently (it may well have been Jeremy Thomas & Richard Lewington's 'Butterflies of Britain and Ireland') a quote from way back which postulated that with butterflies being such delicate and beautiful living creatures, capturing and thus temporarily 'possessing' them was largely something that would be of more appeal to men. I don't know whether this is true, but it is certainly an interesting thought.

I think most people would agree that the primeval instinct to 'collect' and 'score' is much more prevalent in males, probably with it fitting into the category marked 'hunting'. Perhaps this explains why it seems to be men rather than women who are more prone to become deeply interested.

I also believe there are practical reasons though. For instance, in July I will be going to France for a week to an area I am unfamiliar with. I will be simply taking off into the hills alone every day armed only with water, camera and notebook. Now, I daresay most women would be rather more wary of doing something like that alone - you never know who/what's lurking round the next corner. Butterflying is by definition an outdoor pursuit, and it is generally one that is undertaken 'off the beaten track', away from areas of population/activity.

Personally, I think it's quite a difficult interest to admit to having. A lot of people think you're a geek, some think you're gay and others a pervert (honestly, these are remarks I've had levelled at me - maybe understandably given that I'm never happier than when staking out a favourable looking territory far away from suburbia with just a camera in my hands and a look of unbridled anticipation on my face!!)

It's certainly not a hobby that you can 'impress the girls with'. Still, I don't care. As I once said to a former girlfriend when she was berating me for spending yet another sunny weekend out in the field: "Which would you prefer, me going out looking for butterflies or going down the pub every night watching football incessantly, ending up in fights and cheating on you with other girls whilst drunk?"

There was a pause of a few seconds before she replied: "butterflies, I suppose".

Your week away sounds like my idea of heaven!

[David M]

Further to points raised earlier, I would like to add something to one that I missed, i.e. the predominance of males being serious enthusiasts.

I read in a book recently (it may well have been Jeremy Thomas & Richard Lewington's 'Butterflies of Britain and Ireland') a quote from way back which postulated that with butterflies being such delicate and beautiful living creatures, capturing and thus temporarily 'possessing' them was largely something that would be of more appeal to men. I don't know whether this is true, but it is certainly an interesting thought.

I think most people would agree that the primeval instinct to 'collect' and 'score' is much more prevalent in males, probably with it fitting into the category marked 'hunting'. Perhaps this explains why it seems to be men rather than women who are more prone to become deeply interested.

I also believe there are practical reasons though. For instance, in July I will be going to France for a week to an area I am unfamiliar with. I will be simply taking off into the hills alone every day armed only with water, camera and notebook. Now, I daresay most women would be rather more wary of doing something like that alone - you never know who/what's lurking round the next corner. Butterflying is by definition an outdoor pursuit, and it is generally one that is undertaken 'off the beaten track', away from areas of population/activity.

Personally, I think it's quite a difficult interest to admit to having. A lot of people think you're a geek, some think you're gay and others a pervert (honestly, these are remarks I've had levelled at me - maybe understandably given that I'm never happier than when staking out a favourable looking territory far away from suburbia with just a camera in my hands and a look of unbridled anticipation on my face!!)

It's certainly not a hobby that you can 'impress the girls with'. Still, I don't care. As I once said to a former girlfriend when she was berating me for spending yet another sunny weekend out in the field: "Which would you prefer, me going out looking for butterflies or going down the pub every night watching football incessantly, ending up in fights and cheating on you with other girls whilst drunk?"

There was a pause of a few seconds before she replied: "butterflies, I suppose".

Your week away sounds like my idea of heaven!

Maybe, but a lot of women would consider it too potentially dangerous.

There's one girl at work who comes over as quite a tough cookie. She's into the gym and sporting activities but when I suggested cycling or running might be an option she confessed that she didn't do these things because she was afraid "someone might jump out of the bushes".

[Roger Gibbons]

I also believe there are practical reasons though. For instance, in July I will be going to France for a week to an area I am unfamiliar with. I will be simply taking off into the hills alone every day armed only with water, camera and notebook. Now, I daresay most women would be rather more wary of doing something like that alone - you never know who/what's lurking round the next corner. Butterflying is by definition an outdoor pursuit, and it is generally one that is undertaken 'off the beaten track', away from areas of population/activity.

I hope I never have to regret saying this, but I spend a lot of time meandering alone through the French Alpes and pre-Alpes, usually in very deserted regions and I have never had any reason to feel unsafe. For the last five years I have spent the spring and summer in France (the month of July travelling from Nice to Zermatt) on which my experience is based.

I sometimes meet other people, often travelling alone, sometimes lone women, as the outdoor life is very much the norm in France, hence the number of GR (grande randonnée = serious walking) tracks. I don’t get the impression that women are apprehensive about their safety. Everyone is very friendly and pleasant, even though they may think butterfly photography a little eccentric. French life is much closer to the land and rather like England used to be 40 or 50 years ago. My wife often comes with me and is quite happy to sit in a roadside chair in some remote region, reading while I wander off into the hills.

I often stay in chambres d’hotes where the custom is that everyone, hosts included, have the evening meal around a large table in a very sociable way. In my experience French people are charming, sociable and welcoming. It helps if you attempt to speak French (my French is almost up to the standard of the policeman in “Allo Allo”), as it shows respect for French culture and their language is at the heart of their culture.

Roger

[Lee Hurrell]

In my experience French people are charming, sociable and welcoming. It helps if you attempt to speak French (my French is almost up to the standard of the policeman in “Allo Allo”), as it shows respect for French culture and their language is at the heart of their culture. Roger

I completely agree Roger. I've been to France quite a bit over the last 6 years and the hospitality has never been less than generous. Except maybe in Paris and only then occasionally. My French is at roughly the same stage as yours but it does help if you try! I can get by in a shop, bar or restuarant and my reading is getting better.

We're going again this year, further south than last and halfway up a mountain - details and a request for any local sites to follow in the overseas thread when I've finished looking through Tolman at the possibilities!

I'm a bit like David, in that give me a sunny day, a camera, my notebook, several bottles of water and a mountain to climb and I'm off

I foresee that happening this year quite a bit.

Cheers

Lee

[David M]

I accept what you're saying. The collective psyche of the French is different to that of the British, something I attempted to come up with an explanation for when I was at university in Toulouse.

I think it's largely down to the Latin, rather than Anglo Saxon culture, although obviously the climate is a contributory factor as well as the greater degree of space afforded due to the size of the country. It all adds up to a less 'cut-throat' way of life. People are more civil, more respectful and far less obsessed with material possessions. I think if there's one word above all others I'd use it'd be 'convivial', as to me that best represents French life in relation to what we're generally used to in the UK.

That said, if you're a British woman who isn't au fait with France, then you may well not realise how different it is from Britain, and even though I agree that (in the countryside at least) it's far safer than here, that doesn't mean it's completely safe.