www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

And a welcome from me too Liz For those that don't know Liz, she's responsible (with Andrew Middleton) for some ground-breaking work regarding the Purple Emperor:

http://www.hertsmiddx-butterflies.org.u ... hp#reports

and White-letter Hairstreak:

http://www.hertsmiddx-butterflies.org.u ... /index.php

What's your next project Liz?

Cheers,

- Pete

Thought I would try and set up a new topic as I don't want the discussion on the TV programme hijacked because I joined today.

Thank you Pete for your welcome - also appreciated

As to new projects.........
We still have to write up our White-letter Hairstreak project work. Never as fun as looking for the butterfly unfortunately.

With the white-letter work a little less hectic now, we hope to spend a bit more time looking for Purple Emperors in Hertfordshire next year. We had a really exciting season for Emperors with areas 'refound' all within the historic landscape of north Hertfordshire. Never underestimate that butterfly - it has been in the landscape for a hundred years in north Hertfordshire but only made it presence known this year for the first time in close on 30 years. We had had some unconfirmed /second-hand reports which we hadn't dismissed but nothing definite or reported directly to us.

Then we also get quite involved looking for Grizzled Skipper.

But the snag is that I have another interest..............and thats boats and sailing on the Norfolk Broads. I have become a Trustee of the Broads Society. (Not to be confused with the Broads Authority). There is a class of boats called Yare & Bure One Designs. In 2008 they celebrated their 100th Anniversary of the first boat being built and quess what! They are all (or nearly all) named after butterflies and moths! The boat I own is called Chalk hill Blue - that was named by my brother in 1979 because when he was young, our grandparents lived close to Pewley Downs on the edge of Guildford and he used to see them there. A friend of mine has just spent a very large sum of money getting one of the original ones rebuilt and back on the water. That one was no 3 and her original name is still retained Purple Emperor!
Liz

Hi Liz,

And a warm welcome from me too Good to see you on here.

I've heard of His Majesty at Park Wood, Ruislip too, something I am yet to see but I'll be investigating.

Kind Regards

Lee

You’re NOT allowed to have any other interest Liz It has to be butterflies, butterflies, butterflies plus perhaps the occasional moth.

I suppose if you are using your boat for the primary purpose of studying Swallowtails in the Broads, maybe your weird interest would be allowable - just

When I flew gliders, there was little enjoyment in the sky, the mountain scenery, sharing the air with Buzzards, the long flight, the fast finish followed by a low fly-past, the apres-glide. No. I was using my glider purely as a tool to enable me to search for remote butterfly habitats

Jack

Hi Liz, and welcome..!

I know you've only just joined, but can I pick your brains regarding white letter hairstreak...

...particularly around available data sets for the egg laying preferences of the WLH, together with whether or not a colony can survive upon non-flowering Elm. Research conducted by Martyn Davies in the 1980's implied that colonies could (and do) survive on non-flowering elms, and that larvae will develop from ova and pupate successfully on suckered growth and short 'hedgerow Elms'. The results of this study were used extensively in the production of the BC White Letter Hairstreak booklet, which also makes passing reference to the species ability to survive without flowering Elm.

I know of two colonies in Hampshire where ova are frequently laid upon non flowering English Elm.

Matthew Oates, in a study which was summarised in Butterfly Conservation Society News #32, also presents evidence to support the survival of WLH colonies in the absence of flowering elm.

I recently contacted a couple of experienced breeders of lepidoptera who have both reared the WLH in captivity from ova. Both stated that they had successfully reared larvae through to adulthood on foliage alone without significant loss. The newly emerged larvae fed upon the developing leaf buds in the absence of flowers.

While flowering Wych Elm is clearly preferred by the species (every study seems to confirm this); is there any data to support the theory that non flowering Elm is able to support the species and enable populations to survive the loss of mature trees (eg. through disease) as I suspect? This would also provide a means of colony dispersal across the wider countryside. This could be important for how we view the conservation of this species going forward.

This subject has been hotly debated among the Hants BC Conservation subcommittee (of which I am a humble cog), but there are parties who will not accept the proposition that colonies can survive (albeit perhaps only temporarily) on non flowering elm.

This has been compounded by references to Friedrich (Harley Books 1986) in which he states ''Rearing from the egg with elm leaves fails,...'' which is catagorically incorrect. I am fed up of having this text quoted at me..!

Are you able to provide and data to support any of this?

Many thanks in advance,

Felix.

Hello Felix
I seem to recollect Pete asking a similar question at the National AGM..........

You say

I know of two colonies in Hampshire where ova are frequently laid upon non flowering English Elm.

That is your answer and don't ever accept that if it says different in a book the book is correct. The book that you say is being quoted from is over 20 years old!

A new edition of a famous book was published this year and continued to say that Brown Hairstreak are only active in certain temperatures and at certain times of the day. That isn 't the case because we (AM and myself) have observed them early morning with temperature probes set to prove what the temperature is. We had a short 'note' published in one of the entomological journals saying that.

It also says that White-letter are not seen pairing or something like that but we have seen them doing this as has at least one other observer. I remember when we first started looking for Purple Emperor a book said that female didn''t come down to the ground - well obviously she hadn't read that book?

All the time you read things that you know are not correct - why because you have seen it for yourself. As to the question - I have not found an egg on non-flowering elm but I have not looked to any great extent. It is horrible stuff to look at the - the structure makes it very difficult for starters. Give me a lovely piece of well budded easily accessible wych elm any day! Any budded elm is our preferred choice.

However, within our project before we started looking for eggs more seriously, we had two targets where we found elm in spring which was not flowering/had no flowers. We returned in June and adults were observed - in one case one was just perched on a dull day and in the other males were active in the canopy. Both were in Berkshire if that helps.

What our project has shown is that the butterfly is far more widespread than some people realise. What we can't say is whether populations are lower than say 20 or 30 years ago. The BAP status is based on transect monitoring declines but it is such a tricky little individual to observe and we all know that transect routes are set in stone but elm dies and if the elm dies on the actual route it won't necessarily be recordeed but, the butterfly will simply relocate to the nearest elm which might be a few hundred metres away but off transect..........

Hopefully when we do our report we will be able to answer some of the myths that surround this butterfly.

PRobably haven't answered your question though
Liz

Liz Goodyear wrote: A new edition of a famous book was published this year and continued to say that Brown Hairstreak are only active in certain temperatures and at certain times of the day. That isn 't the case because we (AM and myself) have observed them early morning with temperature probes set to prove what the temperature is.

That's interesting, since a fellow member of this site and me observed White Letter Hairstreaks active on a cool, highly overcast day and even in light rain this summer, when all the books seem to suggest that such a thing is not possible.

Hi Liz,

Good to see you on here!

The other discussion has turned into the Martin White Show but I very much enjoyed Clive Farrell's segment, and wondered how the habitat in St Albans was developing. The similar habitat we have in Somerset, at Carymoor, has been colonised by Small Blue, and had Grayling on site in 2009 - where they came from I have no idea as I thought they had died out away from the coasts in this part of the world.

Chris Iles.

Matsukaze wrote: Carymoor, has been colonised by Small Blue, and had Grayling on site in 2009 - where they came from I have no idea as I thought they had died out away from the coasts in this part of the world.

There is a Grayling colony 20 miles from the coast in south Wales that calls a former coal mine slag heap home.

Old coal tips are great for butterflies. The Somerset ones are now mostly overgrown, but still have Grizzled and Dingy Skippers and Green Hairstreak. I still hope to add the Duke to the list, which might be a national first - the habitat looks suitable and it occurred within the parish not long ago...I have not seen Grayling here but have not deliberately searched for it, and may have to have a look next year.

In South Wales there must be a considerable area still friendly to butterflies. I wonder how well searched they are? It's very unlikely, but I can imagine Silver-studded or even Mazarine Blue adapting to them.

Many thanks for the comprehensive and helpful response Liz,

There's clearly scope for further research into the ecology of this species, especially regarding the choice of egg laying site and the role of non flowering elm in allowing the species to maintain a toe hold following the loss of mature trees through (for example) disease as well as enabling the species to navigate it's way across country to more suitable habitats/expand it's range.

Unfortunately as you say, certain publications tend to encourage people to only explore sites where mature wych elm flourishes. In fact, speaking with a colleague, more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and criticising the recent publication that you allude to and finding inaccuracies on almost every page. The message, as you say, is to trust your own observations..!

Even more unfortunately, as I wrote in my original post above, there are people who should perhaps have more open minds who simply refuse to believe anything which contradicts what they have read; which is a shame especially as this impacts the general attitude towards the conservation of the species.

If I have the time after the snow melts I intend to find some ova on non flowering elm, mark them, and follow the development of the larvae through to the adult insect. I shall also be rearing a handful of larvae from the egg (currently in my refrigerator) on leaf buds alone just to satisfy myself that the larvae can develop successfully without the need for flowers, which certain texts shall tell you are an essential component of the larvae diet.

Thanks once again,

Felix.

I have finally seen the programme from start to finish so feel able to comment but I shan't.

1. Butterfly World - I have only been once and that was in early Summer. There is a very strong Common Blue colony developing. There is a lot of Kidney Vetch - I am sure Clive is hoping that Small Blue will colonise but they have some distance to travel

A transect was set up in its first year so as the habitat develops we will have a sound record of how the butterflies are responding.

My inlaws thoroughly enjoyed it and it is proving very popular with school parties which is excellent - some of the gardens at the time of visiting looked a bit tired. It was before the rainy season so everything was very parched.

How many butterflies did I see outside of the heated greenhouse - nil!

2. White-letter Hairstreak - I will be very interested in hearing how the larvae progress
3. We have Grizzled Skipper on a railway in Hertfordshire. For the last three years myself and Andrew sign our life away and have an escorted visit arranged my Network Rail. We have the track crew that come along looking as well. Thankfully due to the co-operation of the Grizzled Skipper ability to roost in convenient places we don't have to worry about a rainy day when it booked several weeks in advance. So far non of the visits have been during a rainy / dull day, but that was how we first found the site. Looking through binoculars in the rain from a pubic footpath at seed heads on the trackside

Liz

Butterfly World:

There is a very strong Common Blue colony developing. There is a lot of Kidney Vetch - I am sure Clive is hoping that Small Blue will colonise but they have some distance to travel

I would have reservations about drawing too many conclusion from the numbers of Common Blues seen there last summer - they were truly abundant everywhere. But I wouldn't be surprised if Small Blues turn up there sooner rather than later. They might have quite a short distance to travel. Surely there must be undetected colonies on the embankments of the nearby M25 or M1 or one of the railways?

Jack

Felix wrote:... more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and criticising the recent publication that you allude to and finding inaccuracies on almost every page.

These hordes of people are very quiet, aren't they?

Cheers,

- Pete

Pete Eeles wrote:

Felix wrote:... more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and criticising the recent publication that you allude to and finding inaccuracies on almost every page.

These hordes of people are very quiet, aren't they?

Cheers,

- Pete

It's true! People feel uncomfortable criticising publicly what has been haled as a pedestal worthy publication. This is a shame. The book is of course excellent, but people should feel that they can stand up and say "actually my own observations contradict this text" without fear of being criticised themselves for daring to disagree with the 'experts'.

Felix.

The Common Blue colony at Butterfly World was developing in 2009 prior to last year's large numbers

Small Blue is considered extinct in Hertfordshire at the moment. There is a strong colony close to the Herts border near Tring and during the summer adults were observed at Aldbury Nowers. There were press releases to the effect that Small Blue had returned - I await evidence of breeding at Aldbury Nowers before I am prepared to say it has returned.

There is Kidney Vetch on the steep embankment M25/M1 junction currently been widened - people have looked
There is Kidney Vetch on the A41 at Hemel Hempstead - people have looked
Kidney Vetch was included in the Baldock bypass seeding - it is difficult to look but this is where we hope they might turn up.

Kidney Vetch is very short in supply in Herts - so suitable habitat is limited.

Liz

Felix wrote:The book is of course excellent, but people should feel that they can stand up and say "actually my own observations contradict this text" without fear of being criticised themselves for daring to disagree with the 'experts'.

Absolutely. But that's very different from saying "more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and criticising the recent publication that you allude to and finding inaccuracies on almost every page"

Cheers,

- Pete

OK, slight tangent but...(gulp)...

Felix wrote:People feel uncomfortable criticising publicly what has been haled as a pedestal worthy publication. This is a shame. The book is of course excellent, but people should feel that they can stand up and say "actually my own observations contradict this text" without fear of being criticised themselves for daring to disagree with the 'experts'.

Scotch Argus: "For a butterfly that inhabits some of the wettest regions of the British Isles, this species is extraodinarily dependent on sunshine. Adults occasionally fly in warm, overcast weather, but float to the ground the moment a cloud appears, vanishing deep into the tussocks. They are then surprisingly hard to spot because they so closely resemble dead leaves. But they emerge in numbers the moment the sun reappears..."

And in another publication: "When the sun shines, activity levels are high but, on days of intermittent sun, a passing cloud will see the butterflies drop immediately into the grass....and will take to the wing as soon as the ambient temperature rises above about 15 C. Above such temperatures they are easily disturbed into flight on dull days and even during light rain."

And according to my notebook: "24th August 2010, Bacharn Trail, Grantown-upon-Spey - despite the 8/8 cloud cover and air temperature so low we could see our breath steaming (!!!) several undisturbed Scotch Argus aethiops flying low across grassy meadows and many more disturbed into flight at our passing. Not a hint of sunshine throughout and it remained very bloody cold for late August!!!"

I'm not "coming out of the woodwork", just making an observation that my notes are at odds with the literature. I texted Mr Riley regards the naturally-flying individuals in cold conditions, somewhat contradicting his guide. His reply was full of bravo's and well-dones. He's a very nice chap.

Gibster.

As far as I am concerned, there is only one expert. ME.

Doubtless many others would consider themselves to be the only real expert.

By the way, I found some Orange Tips today. Now I bet that nobody else would have known exactly where to look for the Tupperware box in my garage where half-a dozen chrysalides are over-wintering. So there you are. I AM AN EXPERT. Not even my wife would know where to find them. (I hope she doesn’t - there would be hell to pay for nicking the Tupperware)

Jack

Pete Eeles wrote:

Felix wrote:The book is of course excellent, but people should feel that they can stand up and say "actually my own observations contradict this text" without fear of being criticised themselves for daring to disagree with the 'experts'.

Absolutely. But that's very different from saying "more and more people are coming out of the woodwork and criticising the recent publication that you allude to and finding inaccuracies on almost every page"

Cheers,

- Pete

Well, I do talk to people despite my anti-social disposition, and people do tell me of 'problems' that they have found in the text. Particularly individuals who are specialists in particular species or families. Perhaps it's the "people are coming out" phrase that is throwing you?

Gibster says that he's not coming out of the woodwork, but he has done exactly what I was referring to. So far on this thread alone, individual's observations of the tartan argus and the white letter hairstreak are at odds with the text.

Felix.

Jack Harrison wrote:here is only one expert. ME.

Do you mean 'ex-pert' as in 'ex' = formerly and 'pert' = sprightly; lively; vivacious... ?



Felix.