www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

Cheers,

- Pete

I agree with Pete’s IDs except:
7. from what I can see, this looks like a Turquoise Blue (Polyommatus dorylas), in fact I am fairly confident it is
9. Escher’s Blue (Polyommatus escheri) – easier to ID in the field as escheri is large and thersites is icarus-size
11. this looks like a female Osiris Blue (Cupido osiris) – both series of post-discal spots are nicely in line and straight and it is sitting on what appears to be Sainfoin. The converse if usually true: other species are attracted to Sainfoin and it is their larval hostplant (we used to say foodplant), but osiris females are nearly always on Sainfoin, and if it sitting on something else, it very likely isn’t osiris. Another easier to ID in the field – iolas is probably the largest European blue and osiris is among the smallest.
12. tricky. On the basis of the post-discal markings I would say Small Blue (Cupido minimus), but the faint marginal markings, the suggestion of a bump around s2 and the uniform dark colouring veer me toward a female Provencal Short-tailed Blue (Everes alcetas) and that is what I would go for.
13. I would guess at Chalk-hill Blue (Lysandra coridon) on the left and Turquoise Blue (Polyommatus dorylas) on the right, although I would like to have seen a trace of upperside blue, but I can’t see what else it could be.

Roger

13 (left) is Adonis? I can see a flash of blue brilliance which would rule out Chalkhill.

Granted, I'm not an European ID expert though.

Cheers

Lee

I'd have gone for Adonis too for that one. Otherwise, I agree with Roger, adding that in 5 the other blue is chalkhill. In 9 you can just see the escheri 'antlers' on the forewing. Turquoise seems most probable for 7 but I wouldn't be able to swear to that.

11 is very probably osiris but I would pass on 12 - the critical features are either obscured or ambiguous, and no colour judgment is possible because of the yellow reflection.

Guy

Well spotted, Lee. If I had seen the flash of blue, I would have gone for Adonis, too, even though the underside does seem to be a very cold grey for Adonis, more the unh colour I associate with Chalk-hill in the Pyrenees.

Roger

Flippin 'eck - that's some impressive identification going on! In fact, I am in awe

Thanks Roger, Guy, Lee.

Cheers,

- Pete

Forgive me again, but shouldn't an Adonis have a cell spot like this one, also seen in Spain:
Cheers,
Robin

Robin, you are absolutely right that Adonis Blue should have a cell spot. I think you can see enough of the forewing of Pete's #13 to be reasonably sure there is no cell spot.

Cell spots are nearly always a sure ID pointer, but not 100%. I have a photo of a Turquoise Blue (Polyommatus dorylas) that clearly has cell spot, even though the books state clearly that it doesn’t have one.

I have a photo of an Adonis Blue (15213) taken in May in lowland Var, so not an altitude specimen, which has a very small cell spot and generally grey colouring. It was caught and ID’d (and released unharmed) by Simon Spencer, the head of the BC European Group. I am not 100% convinced that the blue you can see on the forewing of Pete's #13 is an absolute indicator of Adonis, although it probably is.

I have sent Pete's photo to Tim Cowles to see if he has an opinion.

I think the key point to emerge from these interesting ID discussions is that there is no substitute for local knowledge, which would be particularly important for the Spanish Fritillary ID question.

I got a response from Tim Cowles who feels it is Lysandra and from what can be seen of the upperside, bellargus. He added that there is no reason why odd individuals should not be missing this cell spot, and has experience of Common Blues with a cell spot on one side only.

I think Tim has answered the question of the one on the right – Mother-of-pearl Blue (Polyommatus nivescens). I had reservations about the absence of any blue on what is visible of the upperside which did not fit with what I would expect from Turquoise Blue (Polyommatus dorylas); I also felt that the markings were a little different from what I would expect of dorylas, but populations vary and dorylas does vary quite significantly even within the same region. Nivescens fits these markings very closely and has dark upperside borders, so these two pieces of evidence make a strong case together, but bear in mind it does not occur in France (maybe in one or two locations on the French side of the Pyrenees) and I have never seen it.

Pete mentioned the location as Tremp, and I recall that there is a house called Casa Guilla in that region which advertises butterfly holidays. Their web site mentions nivescens and Spanish Fritillary (Euphydryas desfontainii) as being seen in the region (sometimes these lists from holiday locations can appear to written by Ryanair) so maybe the people who run it could advise on where nivescens and desfontainii are found in the region and maybe even help on ID.

Roger

Without disagreeing with Roger in his general comments about difficult IDs (which might actually have been on a different Spanish butts thread), I would add that the camera should not be the primary ID tool! Field notes, including behaviour, habitat details and flowers present and visited are very useful. I now dictate mine into my iPhone, but used to use a separate digital recorder. In Europe a net is sometimes indispensible. You can examine ups and uns, look for all the critical features and then release the butterfly completely unharmed, with less disturbance to insect and habitat than chasing it for a photo.

On the Adonis question, I've certainly seen individuals lacking the spot, though a search through my photos turned up nothing.

Nivescens - brilliant suggestion. I really must go south of the Pyrenees next year.

Guy

Wow, what a brilliant photo!! Adonis without a cell spot AND Mother of Pearl Blue. Well done Pete!!

Robin wrote:Wow, what a brilliant photo!! Adonis without a cell spot AND Mother of Pearl Blue. Well done Pete!!

I think it's good for the records - but is an awful shot! I nearly binned it

Cheers,

- Pete

Roger Gibbons wrote:I got a response from Tim Cowles who feels it is Lysandra and from what can be seen of the upperside, bellargus. He added that there is no reason why odd individuals should not be missing this cell spot, and has experience of Common Blues with a cell spot on one side only.

I think Tim has answered the question of the one on the right – Mother-of-pearl Blue (Polyommatus nivescens). I had reservations about the absence of any blue on what is visible of the upperside which did not fit with what I would expect from Turquoise Blue (Polyommatus dorylas); I also felt that the markings were a little different from what I would expect of dorylas, but populations vary and dorylas does vary quite significantly even within the same region. Nivescens fits these markings very closely and has dark upperside borders, so these two pieces of evidence make a strong case together, but bear in mind it does not occur in France (maybe in one or two locations on the French side of the Pyrenees) and I have never seen it.

Pete mentioned the location as Tremp, and I recall that there is a house called Casa Guilla in that region which advertises butterfly holidays. Their web site mentions nivescens and Spanish Fritillary (Euphydryas desfontainii) as being seen in the region (sometimes these lists from holiday locations can appear to written by Ryanair) so maybe the people who run it could advise on where nivescens and desfontainii are found in the region and maybe even help on ID.

Roger

Please pass my thanks on to Tim, Roger. We actually stayed at Casa Guilla (and is highly recommended!), although the hosts aren't "deep" experts on the local butterflies (but do know most of the local species, including moths).

Cheers,

- Pete

You can just make out a Frit in picture 13 too....

Cheers

Lee

I had spotted it and had it down as parthenoides - but I thought it wise not to comment before!

Guy