www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

Just seen the bit about the Great Spangled Frit going onto the British list at the expense of a misidentification... the moral is question everything, even in the face of the "experts".. sometimes knowledge and expectation does cloud the truth just like the Emperor's new clothes.

On the same subject.. I took some photos of the GSF in Canada a while back but I've never seen an Aphrodite

Nice armchair tick for your British list then, Paul!

Guy

Paul wrote:the moral is question everything, even in the face of the "experts"

I think that it's the "experts" we have to thank for spotting this misidentification that had just rumbled on for years without anyone really looking at the butterfly or questioning the identification.

Felix.

Quite right Felix.... but my point was.... IF for example I had have scrutinized it... and thought.... hold on, that looks more like a GSF, then NO-ONE would have given my statement ANY credence whatsoever.... 'cos I'm not an expert. - so ONLY an expert could have said something like that and have it taken seriously. - and how has it taken over a century before the error was noticed ??

I came across the same thing at Med School.... will never forget the realization that Prof's diagnosis was correct just 'cos it was he that decreed so. Whether he was right or wrong was never questioned... and you're not telling me he was NEVER wrong. He was of course VERY safe in the company of us students

Having said that, I am quite delighted those hallowed individuals have finally set the record straight.

Guy... don't happen much easier - but - whilst I'm in this mood.... how the f%£* can such as this and the Slate Flash etc POSSIBLY be on the British list!!! So one was bought in by a Victorian Grand Tourer, or by mistake on a ship... but that makes them no more British Butterflies than anything that was ever bought here dead and pinned up. Surely there must be tens of species which have better claim, though we will probably never know they were here 1-10K years ago. Why does the British list not include examples of all the Butterfly House escapees??.. I remember being at Sion House years ago and being taken aback by a rather wonderful bright blue papilionid on the Marigolds in the grounds!!

Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into a rant... only a couple of observations really, shutting up now

Rants are fine - I'll be formally introducing a UKB "therapy" section real soon

Seriously - I know exactly what you mean. There are quite a few species on "the list" that could never, in any conceivable way, be considered "British". My rationale is that these occurrences are simply of historical significance, rather than for any other reason. I, too, have seen foreign species in Stratford-upon-Avon (a Malachite) nectaring outside the butterfly house, which isn't as good as Susie's Blue Morphos flying down the river!

In order to "draw a line" under such occurrences, I decided to stop at those species listed in Emmet and Heath. The GSF is simply a correction of that set. And the policy is the reason why Marbled Fritillary (seen in Finemere Wood for the last few years) won't be on the list.

And please post your photos in the appropriate album

Cheers,

- Pete

yes, I wasn't knocking your choice of species Pete... I find E&H a wonderful but really quite weird & eclectic book with it's selection of butterflies - well worth having

Paul wrote:I will never forget the realization that Prof's diagnosis was correct just 'cos it was he that decreed so. Whether he was right or wrong was never questioned... and you're not telling me he was NEVER wrong. He was of course VERY safe in the company of us students

I find that if you sound authoritative enough people will believe pretty much anything..! It's particularly useful in the office ("I put those reports on your desk weeks ago, are you telling me you've lost them?")

Felix.

Paul wrote:how the f%£* can such as this and the Slate Flash etc POSSIBLY be on the British list!!!

What we need is some kind of glossary of terms that clearly sets out what we mean by 'resident', 'migrant', 'adventive' etc together with which species each term embraces...

Ahem.

Felix.

Pete Eeles wrote:And the policy is the reason why Marbled Fritillary (seen in Finemere Wood for the last few years) won't be on the list.

Is this a self-sustaining population then?

Paul:

...I came across the same thing at Med School.... will never forget the realization that Prof's diagnosis was correct just 'cos it was he that decreed so....

I remember a lesson for pilots about weight and balance. It involved plotting on a complicated diagram and doing a few sums. The instructor loadmaster was NOT impressed that the pencil I had used was so blunt (?) that my answer was to the nearest whole number only. The instructor said that “The best loadmasters can work it out to three decimal places”. I realised that so-called precision corresponds to knowing the balance point (centre of gravity) to the millimetre But the instructor must be right so from then on I used to add three random decimal places; he never noticed my wicked chicanery I passed "weight and balance" with an excellent mark!

Jack

Felix wrote:I find that if you sound authoritative enough people will believe pretty much anything..!

Today someone pointed me in the direction of this Guardian article from a few years back questioning (to put it politely) 'Dr' Gillian McKeith's professional credentials. Gillian can of course currently be seen doing a wonderful job of advertising the benefits of nutrition on a certain programme set in the jungle.

Not that I'd imagine many of you watch it (I don't out of choice, but other members of Hurrell Towers do).

Cheers

Lee

A Google search says that Ms.McKeith is "....the internationally acclaimed....".

I once got a website hit from the Isle of Wight (or was it the Isle of Man?). I presume that makes me "internationally acclaimed"

Jack

David M wrote:

Pete Eeles wrote:And the policy is the reason why Marbled Fritillary (seen in Finemere Wood for the last few years) won't be on the list.

Is this a self-sustaining population then?

I guess the only person that knows that is whoever dumped their stock in Finemere in the first place and whether they've been doing any topping up.

Cheers,

- Pete

Marbled Fritillary ... in Finemere Wood

I really would like to get to the bottom of this sort of thing. Lindrick Common has its extraordinary range of introduced species. Chambers Farm Wood is another where apparently DNA testing of the Marsh Fritillaries shows that they aren’t even British stock.

I am not necessarily against introductions but it is essential that we know how, when and why.

Jack

Lee Hurrell wrote:

Felix wrote:I find that if you sound authoritative enough people will believe pretty much anything..!

Today someone pointed me in the direction of this Guardian article from a few years back questioning (to put it politely) 'Dr' Gillian McKeith's professional credentials. Gillian can of course currently be seen doing a wonderful job of advertising the benefits of nutrition on a certain programme set in the jungle.

Not that I'd imagine many of you watch it (I don't out of choice, but other members of Hurrell Towers do).

Cheers

Lee

Of course, the link would help

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/fe ... ising.food

Lee

David M wrote: Pete Eeles wrote:And the policy is the reason why Marbled Fritillary (seen in Finemere Wood for the last few years) won't be on the list.

Is this a self-sustaining population then?

Hi Pete, Felix, Jack et al

What happens if the population becomes self-sustaining? Would it then become "British"? And how many generations would it take for the species in question to become acceptably self-sustaining? And if they did become self-sustaining and fill the necessary criteria as being British, would efforts be made to eradicate the population before it spreads? I realise that most exotic species, left to themselves, will simply dwindle and die unless "topped up", but surely many could successfully breed and thrive in our climate. What is the policy on such populations (either exotics or residents put into the 'wrong' place)?

Using birds as an example (sorry, but I'm better at birds than butterflies!) take the Rose-ringed Parakeet, Mandarin Duck, Ruddy Duck, White-tailed Eagle and, in a few years time perhaps, Great Bustard. ALL introduced and ALL accepted on the official British List.

Can you even count the Essex Heath Frits or Somerset's Glanville Frits (or ANY Large Blues) as acceptable on the British List?

Cheers,

Gibster.

Gibster:

What happens if the population becomes self-sustaining? Would it then become "British"?

Some Homo sapiens immigrant populations don't seem to share that point of view.

Jack

Considering the Heath Fritillary only continues to exist because of the deliberate manipulation of its habitat, can it realistically still be considered an established British resident?

Matsukaze wrote:Considering the Heath Fritillary only continues to exist because of the deliberate manipulation of its habitat, can it realistically still be considered an established British resident?

That's a worthy and pertinent point.

How long does it take before an introduced species is considered 'established'?

For instance, there were no wild grey squirrels in Britain 200 years ago yet today they are part of the accepted UK mammalian inventory. Ring-necked parakeets have similarly become locally abundant in the south east of England recently, to the point where they're considered a pest.

I don't condone someone introducing Marbled Fritillaries to these islands, but if they're subsequently left to their own devices, thrive, multiply and put down roots, why should we continue to deny their existence as a true British species purely on a technicality?

Officially, the Glanville Fritillary doesn't 'exist' on mainland Britain, yet we all know it has mainland colonies and has had for several years now.

If we take this philosophy to its extreme, perhaps we should also dismiss the credentials of the Large Blue. After all, it became extinct as a resident species and only exists now due to structured and painstaking reintroduction work.

Oops....something about worms and an opened can?