www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

I was at Southport yesterday in the Dunes. I took this picture, is it a Scotch Argus? It would be nice to be right for once
Goldie M

Sorry lost the picture

Unfortunately it looks like a Meadow Brown to me.

Here's a not-particularly good shot of one from a few years back.

A Meadow Brown doesn't have two spots like this one does it Micheljf. That's what made me think it was a Scotch Argus.
When zoomed in you can see the other spot . Thank you anyway, I'm still in doubt about it . Goldie M

I would love it to be Scotch Argus for you.... but it is a meadow brown - here's the closest Scotch Argus pic I could find to yours...

It is very difficult to say for sure, but I would have guessed at Scotch Argus because of the twin ocelli and the clearly defined hindwing post-discal band. These are strongly indicative of Scotch Argus and I have never seen twin ocelli in a UK Meadow Brown, only in the form hispulla in southern France.

The rather uneven red band around the ocelli is also indicative of Scotch Argus. The apparent paleness possibly indicates a female, also possibly at the end of the flight period. Males are appreciably darker, especially when fresh.

The location and flight period appear right, too. The key is: what did it look like in flight? Scotch Argus would appear very (or at least, quite) dark even if you didn’t get a clear enough view to see the red band or upperside ocelli. As is so often the case, ID in the field is easier than from a photo.

I would be interested in Guy's opinion on this.

I had absolutely no doubt it was a meadow brown. I still can't see a Scotch argus there at all...

Female meadow browns do not infrequently have a twin-pupilled ocellus, as occasionally discussed on these forums.

I'll come back to this butterfly later - got to leave the house IMMEDIATELY or parents will be kept waiting.

Guy

So UK Meadow Browns can have twin ocelli... that’s something I have learnt today. I have looked back at all my Meadow Brown photos and had not seen one (other than southern France) with twin ocelli, nor with such a clearly defined post-discal band.

My doubts about Scotch Argus were that the shading above the ocelli looked well-defined and that the unh band looked a little regular, and maybe the pinprick ocellus only in s5 (and not s2 as well) was more indicative of Meadow Brown than Scotch Argus. But it still looked a closer match to a female Scotch Argus – this is an old photo of a female:
http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... ne_17Aug06

I shall look more closely at UK Meadow Browns in future.

Roger Gibbons wrote:But it still looked a closer match to a female Scotch Argus – this is an old photo of a female

But that photo of the old female Scotch Argus still looks like a Scotch Argus! Goldie's picture looks like a Meadow Brown to me, although the as stated, the twin ocelli is the only thing that makes me wonder. The rest of it looks as clear cut as it could be to me. Perhaps we should say it's of mixed Meadow Brown / Gatekeeper parents instead. Just joking. I'll get me coat

Here's a link to a Meadow Brown ID request from last month, one with twin ocelli.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4339

Cheers

Lee

Thanks, Lee. I didn’t see this twin ocelli Meadow Brown, mainly because I am in France between April and October with three weeks in the UK in August, and I don’t get to see UKB when I am away. I must admit is unlike any Meadow Brown I have ever seen. I have looked at a lot of Meadow Browns on web sites and have not seen any with this clear unh band. The ocelli coupled with the well-defined unh band must be a very unusual combination. Maybe this is how they are in the north. But if Guy is 100%, I am persuaded.

This is the value of sites like UKB where experiences can be shared and discussed, a very useful complement to one’s own observations and the limited number of reliable web sites.

Scotch Argus is quite a variable species which I see in a variety of localities and altitudes in western France, including the French Alpes and the relative lowland areas around Dijon and further north. The upf red post-discal band is often constricted at s3 (often quoted as the characteristic identifier) but this is not always so. And the band can be smooth-edged or jagged-edged, sometimes continuous and sometimes broken at the veins. The uph ocelli can sometimes be enclosed in red spots that are usually flat-edged externally but can be almost circular.

The undersides can be hugely variable as well, from clearly defined bands to almost homogenous across the unh, and varying from brown to almost jet black. The difference between the sexes is usually quite pronounced, but the variation even between the more-usually-seen males is still quite significant.

I have a mere half a dozen Meadow Brown photos.. and bingo... from my garden last year...



can't be that rare up here!!

Thanks everybody, I guess i'll have to call it a Meadow Brown. Pity, I thought I'd definately got a Scotch Argus.Goldie M

Indeed, Paul! They do breed them different up north.

The furthest north I have ever been butterflying is Glapthorn Pastures in Northants. Must be more adventurous...

Roger

I agree with Roger about the discussions and photos on UKB, I have learnt an awful lot over the last year and a bit.

I have also seen a wide variation in colour in Meadow Browns this year, both in France and the UK, from a pale tan brown through to Ringlet chocolate brown. Oh, and I also saw a mini male one at Southwater Woods with Mark Senior, about half size!

Good luck with your Scotch Argus Goldie

Cheers

Lee

I'm sure we can help you get Scotch Argus photos next year Goldie M ..... just ask (PM?) around about the start of August... there are places to go in the North West !!! - but you have to go to them.... the Scotch Argus are unlikely to turn up outside their usual localities. A sad fact for many of our species these days.

PS Roger.... there's not an awful lot to be adventurous about up here... with a few exceptions Meadow Browns are about as good as it gets