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I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:48 pm
by Cotswold Cockney
Superb pictures of form iole of the Purple Emperor (
Apatura iris ) on the web and elsewhere during the past season or so has rekindled my once held ambition to ascertain how iole takes it's place in the scheme of things.
Back in the 1980s, like myself another friend also bred large numbers of this butterfly and he subjected pupae to various temperature change programmes as he was convinced that iole was a conditional, not genetic variation.. I held the opposite view ... a genetic variation. Another breeder who never experimented with temperatures, once had a perfect halved gynandromorph A.iris emerge in his breeding cages... One side the purple sheen of the male whilst the other, larger side, the brown female. He passed the specimen to another well known enthusiast who almost certainly still has it. I met him again last year after a period of three decades and regret not asking him about that.
He obtained some unusual variations as a result but, nothing approaching true iole although one or two were ... very unusual.
My long held ambition was to obtain a wild caught male iole and pair it with a captive bred virgin female...carefully breed the resulting f1 and f2 offspring for a few generations and see what appears to support my view that iole is a genetic, not a conditional variation.... or not.
I now have some very suitable trees and bushes well established over the years in my own little reserve. I prefer growing plants for rearing livestock.
It's probably a bit too late this season but not certainly so. Even a poor worn but otherwise vigorous iole could still be a fine breeding 'sire' . So failing that, next season July 2011, I will try and secure a healthy wild iole male myself and here some observers could provide help if and when one is observed somewhere in areas I rarely now visit.
Hmmmm .... Observing and respecting the feelings and mindsets of some regular contributors here, I welcome any comments on my plan and better still, if anyone would like to act as an observer and give me a 'heads up' should one be spotted, that will get us off to a flying start... hey, nearly a pun... or not...
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Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:18 pm
by Piers
Hi CC,
Lugenda and (the almost mythical) iole are certainly and without any doubt environmentally induced; during the last 24 hours of the larval stage and the first 48 hours of the pupal stage.
Iris is a species that is very susceptible to environmentally induced aberration, far more than most other (British) nymphalids. One only has to look at the number of reported aberrations year in, year out, as a percentage of the numbers of iris actually recorded each year.
However, ab iolata is a different kettle of fish. This aberration is most certainly not semi-iole as it is often reffered to....
Felix.
tbc...........
Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:29 pm
by Piers
Cotswold Cockney wrote:next season July 2011, I will try and secure a healthy wild iole male myself and here some observers could provide help if and when one is observed somewhere in areas I rarely now visit
Hi again CC...
I have to say that few contributors to this site would condone you netting and taking a wild
iole.
Even though the removal of a male from a population would have little (or more likely) no affect upon the population whatsoever; if an
iole or similar was reported on-line a lot of people may well make the pilgrimage to try to see and photograph it. To remove this specimen from the wild would, in this day and age, be a wholly selfish act.
Felix.
Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:38 pm
by Cotswold Cockney
How can you or anyone be that certain ... where is the firm irrefutable proof ~ not the circumstantial stuff.
Selfish or not, once the iole has seen better days, few would want an image of it. It would still be good breeding stock.
Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:41 am
by Piers
Lugenda has been produced in captivity, as has the whole graduated spectrum of morphoclines that can be produced between type and iole. The fact that these morphoclines exist, and are encountered with greater regularity the less extreme the development, is a clue as to the nature of iole and the progressively less extreme aberrations. This type of aberration is consistent in all (certainly all the British) nymphalids.
Felix.
Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:42 am
by Cotswold Cockney
I have seen numerous conditional experimental variations and none are iole. Even so, those experiments do not work on all those subjected to the same treatment programme ~ only some few members of the broods... which poses the question why.... it could STILL be genetic related with conditioning triggering some variation, but not in all those subjected to the treatment...
Consider this: iole could be some form of recessive and even the way the 'type' male butterfly appeared many, many, many generations back in the past. The appearance of iole resembles some of the superb larger Neotropical Nymphalids. In the same way as the white banded patterning of numerous different Purple Emperor species, and indeed several White/Popular Admiral and their close relatives the Gliders have very similar white band wing patterns.
The jury should still be out on this. If it isn't they should be sacked! It is simply not good enough excelling at getting things wrong. Something currently widespread in the former green and pleasant.
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Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:36 pm
by lee3764
Dear Cotswold Cockney,
Great idea for a breeding experiment! I hope you are successful given your skills from years ago!
I consider this 'Hands On' entomology & I applaud your honest & upfront statement confirming your intentions.
Best wishes & good luck.
Dear Felix,
You should write a book on breeding & finding aberrations as you are so knowledgeable & ambitious on the subject. There are a good many people who would welcome another publication on this fascinating subject. There have only been 3 proper books on aberrations alone I think? Frohawk 'Varieties' (1938), Russwurm 'Aberrations of British Butterflies' (1978) & Alec Harmer/Russwurm 'Variation in British Butterflies' (2000).
Kind regards to you both,
Lee (Cornwall).
Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:16 pm
by Piers
Hi Lee,
Believe me I'd love to and it's something that I have long considered.
It would be a kind of 'field guide' essentailly (but probably more 'coffee table' in size); not a lot of text but an awful lot of plates figuring an awful lot of aberrations, photopraphs of wild specimens where possible but augmented by plates of set specimens. It would be like the RCK database but much more comprehensive.
Make no mistake though; it would cost me a mint to produce and I would never get my money back...!!
Something to mull over in the long winter evenings though I suppose, but at the moment my cash being stretched in too many different directions. Not the least being my 'new' old Land Rover restoration to keep me out of the pub during the Winter months...
Felix.
Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:01 pm
by Cotswold Cockney
Felix wrote:.......
..... but at the moment my cash being stretched in too many different directions. Not the least being my 'new' old Land Rover restoration to keep me out of the pub during the Winter months...
Felix.
Hey, a kindred spirit ... a commonality of interests..... long live the old ones.....
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Re: I'm fixing to do some more breedin'.... and then some.
Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:19 pm
by lee3764
Felix wrote:Hi Lee,
Believe me I'd love to and it's something that I have long considered.
It would be a kind of 'field guide' essentailly (but probably more 'coffee table' in size); not a lot of text but an awful lot of plates figuring an awful lot of aberrations, photopraphs of wild specimens where possible but augmented by plates of set specimens. It would be like the RCK database but much more comprehensive.
Make no mistake though; it would cost me a mint to produce and I would never get my money back...!!
Something to mull over in the long winter evenings though I suppose, but at the moment my cash being stretched in too many different directions. Not the least being my 'new' old Land Rover restoration to keep me out of the pub during the Winter months...
Felix.
Dear Felix,
It's easy for me to say, but you definately should seriously think about doing a book. If you ask for sponsorship in advance with a sponsor getting a copy & their name in the front of the book on a list of sponsors page you would get some of the money for the project like that? I did that when Cornwall Butterfly Conservation were going to compile our eventual atlas of Cornwall's butterflies entitled 'A Cornwall Butterfly Atlas' which was published in 2003. You simply write/phone/e-mail/ anyone you know who might be even slightly interested as well as anyone on this forum & ask Butterfly Conservation to put an advert in BC magazine are some examples. Pisces Publications asked our Cornwall Butterfly Branch for £4,000 towards the projected cost of £12,000 of which they fund the remainder & keep advertising it to keep selling it! It worked, we eventually raised the £4,000 & 7 years later the book still sells & we still get some royalties each year as do Pisces Publications keep making profits by the book still selling. I did the main fundraising for the book as I was Chairman of our branch then, which was something I'd never done before & although BC & branches are a charity & you're not I still think many of our sponsors would have still sponsored the book. I set the minimum sponsorship @ £30 with a sponsor getting a free copy with their name on the sponsors list inside. It made it personal & the sponsors loved it when they got their book. I did not have access to e-mail back in 2001 so I did it the hard way by writing letters!
I'll be your 1st confirmed sponsor it if you ever go-ahead with your plan as long as I get my book with my name as a sponsor & you could sign it as well!I did once meet & talk to Michael Salmon at the AES Show at Kempton Park in 2003 when he told me about his ambition & well written plans to publish a book & CD Rom on British Aberrations of Butterflies & I even sent him some photos of a few abs which he returned but I then heard no more! I assume it did not or has not yet proceeded with.
Cheers & best of luck Felix if you are tempted to go ahead with your dream.
Lee Slaughter (Cornwall).