www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

The add says they are captive bred from wood-walton fen stock. I thought this would be illegal but maybe I'm wrong.


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Large-Copper-larv ... 2eae5e100a

And these adverts:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0557417263

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WOOD-WHITE-PAIR-B ... 3f01610fd5

How can people actually prove these are old specimens? I'm puzzled...

Eris wrote:The add says they are captive bred from wood-walton fen stock. I thought this would be illegal but maybe I'm wrong.


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Large-Copper-larv ... 2eae5e100a

The key here is "bred in captivity". As such, there are no laws (as far as I'm aware, in the UK at least) against breeding this species and, to be frank, this species wouldn't be available at all if it weren't for the community of individuals that have been breeding this species (and exchanging stock to maintain the gene pool) for, literally, decades.

Of course, anyone taking stock of this (sub)species from the wild (which, in this case, would be the Netherlands) needs their head examining. Not only is it illegal, but a darn sight more difficult and expensive than getting hold of stock from the community I mention.

But I understand your initial reaction and would dearly love to get all concerns out on the table. There are many responsible breeders out there that I have the utmost respect for. It's the occasional rogue that gives these folk a bad press.

Cheers,

- Pete

Eris wrote:And these adverts:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... 0557417263

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WOOD-WHITE-PAIR-B ... 3f01610fd5

How can people actually prove these are old specimens? I'm puzzled...

Now this is a real problem for the reasons you give. Again - the "rogues" are giving those genuinely interested in historic specimens, especially, a bad name. And it's so easy to disguise the true provenance of any specimen on eBay - just change the data label - job done. I hope the advances in DNA "fingerprinting" catches up with them when we'll really be able to determine their true origin.

Cheers,

- Pete

But doesn't current legal protection supposedly prevent species like Grizzled Skipper, High Brown Fritillary and Wood White from being sold, in any life stage (and being taken from the wild)?

These other items listed by the sellers in the examples do state in the case of Wood White (from Salcey Forest), High Brown (from Arnside) etc.

If that was true, and this is wild British stock either captured as imagos or taken as immature stages to breed (and I guess, can be proven) than surely this is illegal?

Does the same law apply if they are old Victiorian specimens?

Cheers

Lee

Lee Hurrell wrote:But doesn't current legal protection supposedly prevent species like Grizzled Skipper, High Brown Fritillary and Wood White from being sold, in any life stage

The laws around dealing in deadstock are very murky to me. Although I tried to summarise the level of protection (a list of protected species can be found here: http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/reports_law.php) it's still unclear to me. My understanding is that:

- legal protection only applies to wild-caught specimens
- the law only applies to specimens caught after 1981, which is when the Wildlife and Countryside Act came in
- trading in specimens (whatever their age) for protected species can be done under license. Most dealers will say that they have the appropriate Natural England/DEFRA license which, I believe, is handed out indiscriminately to anyone who wants one

Lee Hurrell wrote:But doesn't current legal protection supposedly prevent species like Grizzled Skipper, High Brown Fritillary and Wood White from ... being taken from the wild?

For some species, yes. See the list. Grizzled Skipper isn't on it.

Lee Hurrell wrote:These other items listed by the sellers in the examples do state in the case of Wood White (from Salcey Forest), High Brown (from Arnside) etc.

Yes - but they don't give either a) a date or b) say whether it was wild-caught, or the result of captive-bred stock.

Lee Hurrell wrote:If that was true, and this is wild British stock either captured as imagos or taken as immature stages to breed (and I guess, can be proven) than surely this is illegal?

For listed species, yes, it is illegal. But *proving* that the law has been broken is the real problem.

Lee Hurrell wrote:Does the same law apply if they are old Victiorian specimens?

I believe you still need a license to sell the listed species.

Clear as mud isn't it?

Cheers,

- Pete

Pete Eeles wrote: Most dealers will say that they have the appropriate Natural England/DEFRA license which, I believe, is handed out indiscriminately to anyone who wants one

Thanks Pete

Crikey What a minefield... I wonder how many prosecutions are managed under that exhaustive legal protection

The listings did mention the seller had a Defra license but that doesn't sound like it's worth the paper it's written on.

Being used to seeing 'protected from sale (GB)' against a species name means it does a raise an eyebrow when they appear for sale I guess.

Cheers

Lee

Hmmmm...

Back in the 1970s, I along with several others bred numerous generations as 'support' for WW Stock.... then, maybe now too, they cannot survive there without this kind of support. I must have bred several thousand over the years and passed many early stages and adults to other Butterfly Enthusiasts. I selectively bred for size... and after a few generations maintained a healthy stock of good sized batavus. Same with the Norfolk Swallowtails before the laws were introduced... I no longer breed insects as I am not prepared to set aside the time commitments to do it properly. I have a letter from the appropriate Govt dept at the time in support of the latter...

Consider this. On a number of occasions, I destroyed many larvae as it is simply not possible to provide ideal captive breeding conditions for so many....Farming butterflies ....

Anyone with a genuine concern for these things would be best advised to devoting any such efforts to protection .... of habitats. Those are really an endangered species!
..

You're right of course CC and I'm sure there are many other responsible and licensed breeders out there helping our endangered species.

I suppose what is missing from those for sale listings is some reassurance from the seller that the specimens are in no way taken from the wild and that they are perhaps excess stock used for licensed breeding.

Cheers

Lee

Lee Hurrell wrote:You're right of course CC and I'm sure there are many other responsible and licensed breeders out there helping our endangered species.

I suppose what is missing from those for sale listings is some reassurance from the seller that the specimens are in no way taken from the wild and that they are perhaps excess stock used for licensed breeding.

Cheers

Lee

I think you have hit the nail on the head as to why I was concerned. I know people captive breed and have no problems with this, but certainly some of the listings on Ebay said wild caught. Others emphasised the words genuineand old but the same seller failed to use this emphasis on many of his other listings although saying what part of the country they came from, which made me rather suspicious.

And when I did a google search I noted that on a web page about collectors it mentioned that someone who was an egg collector had been convicted of selling Large Blue and High brown and was convicted at Salisbury magistrates. I then noticed from the Ebay listings the seller of these current specimens, which include large blue and High Brown is located in Salisbury which I thought was a bit of a coincidence.

Eris wrote:And when I did a google search I noted that on a web page about collectors it mentioned that someone who was an egg collector had been convicted of selling Large Blue and High brown and was convicted at Salisbury magistrates. I then noticed from the Ebay listings the seller of these current specimens, which include large blue and High Brown is located in Salisbury which I thought was a bit of a coincidence.

It is coincidental - these are two different individuals.

Woodwalton Large Copper stock only exists in captivity now. Were is not for the efforts of hobby-breeders the stock would have been lost years ago.

The sale of specimens such as those listed on Ebay may be repugnant to many people, but it is important to keep these things in perspective. In the majority of cases it is perfectly legal to sell specimens resulting from captive bred stock. This may be repellent to many people, but it is legal. What we personally find distasteful is one matter, whether or not something should be curtailed on those grounds alone is another. We should be careful not to seek to impose our will on others simply as an emotion driven knee jerk reaction.

The majority of hobby-breeders are butterfly enthusiasts. Many are active members of BC, and some keen amateurs have assisted with the reintroduction of species to sites where they have been lost (Heath Fritillary, Pearl Bordered Fritillary (in Sussex) etc.).

When stock is required for a reintroduction it is very often these hugely experienced individuals who are called upon to assist.

It is also important to remember (if I may echo CC's comments) that when compared to the ongoing loss of suitable habitat; and in particular landscape-scale meta habitat, these issues are mere trifles, irrespective whether or not we find the sight of a set specimen for sale on Ebay distasteful.

Unless all butterfly enthusiasts, in whatever guise the may take, join together with a united voice we may as well forget it. The divide that seems to exist between butterfly photographers and any one who has a more hands on interest in whatever form that may take; scientific study, simple enjoyment through keen observation, or captive breeding, is worrying and potentially very unhelpful to what is ultimately our united cause: saving butterflies, moths and their habitats.

Felix.

I don’t think I need feel guilty. This afternoon I snipped off some Nasturtium leaves in my garden and now have about 20 Small White eggs.

CCs experience in breeding large Large Coppers is fascinating.

Jack

Cotswold Cockney:

....Same with the Norfolk Swallowtails before the laws were introduced.....

Didn’t you tell me once John that you found British Swallowtail eggs on Angelica?

And Black Hairstreak eggs on Elm which initially you had assumed had to be WL Hairstreak until they emerged and all became clear? (or was it the other way round?)

Jack

Felix wrote:

Eris wrote:And when I did a google search I noted that on a web page about collectors it mentioned that someone who was an egg collector had been convicted of selling Large Blue and High brown and was convicted at Salisbury magistrates. I then noticed from the Ebay listings the seller of these current specimens, which include large blue and High Brown is located in Salisbury which I thought was a bit of a coincidence.

It is coincidental - these are two different individuals.

Woodwalton Large Copper stock only exists in captivity now. Were is not for the efforts of hobby-breeders the stock would have been lost years ago.

It is also important to remember (if I may echo CC's comments) that when compared to the ongoing loss of suitable habitat; and in particular landscape-scale meta habitat, these issues are mere trifles, irrespective whether or not we find the sight of a set specimen for sale on Ebay distasteful.

Felix.

Thanks for clearing that up re the Seller and the wood-walton Large Coppers.

As I said, I have no problems with people captive breeding stock, and if they choose to set them, then that is up to them. But I am concerned that recently wild caught specimens might end up be passed off as old specimens just because the price is attractive.

Can I just make a point here. As someone who has been a keen breeder. I started with caterpillars as a tiny kid and went on from there. I have reared Large Coppers from the well known captive stock. I don't see anything wrong with this as it does no harm to the environment.

The one point I will make is this butterfly releases for introductions do not work well. We know this because of the research. Yet we get developers still suggesting butterflies to be moved.

This article linked here shows the result of an SSSI being destroyed and a failed attempt to move Marsh Fritillaries. We know of over 80 failed attempts at this and so far no long term successes.

http://www.swanseafoe.org.uk/selar-sssi ... ou-so.html

This video shows the extension to the site. Play it and weep. See what we are going to loose. It got permission recently. And guess what? They want to move the Small Pearl-Bordered Fritillaries. You'll see one in the video. Of course this won't work well either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHabuVy2-10

Felix wrote: The divide that seems to exist between butterfly photographers and any one who has a more hands on interest in whatever form that may take; scientific study, simple enjoyment through keen observation, or captive breeding, is worrying and potentially very unhelpful to what is ultimately our united cause: saving butterflies, moths and their habitats.

Hi Felix,

This something I didn't know existed to be honest. As a child I undertook keen observation and some small scale breeding and my interest has since developed into photography but I would hesitate to call myself a photographer yet, (as my competition entries may attest ), it's just a by product of my interest really.

I agree on our united cause - spot on.

Cheers

Lee

Neil Jones wrote: Yet we get developers still suggesting butterflies to be moved.

This article linked here shows the result of an SSSI being destroyed and a failed attempt to move Marsh Fritillaries. We know of over 80 failed attempts at this and so far no long term successes.

http://www.swanseafoe.org.uk/selar-sssi ... ou-so.html

This video shows the extension to the site. Play it and weep. See what we are going to loose. It got permission recently. And guess what? They want to move the Small Pearl-Bordered Fritillaries. You'll see one in the video. Of course this won't work well either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHabuVy2-10

One would hope that such an episode could not occur now the species has protection under the European Habitats Directive.

Yeah right...!! There are plenty of laws to prosecute some poor sod for selling a specimen but nothing can stand in the way of this type of 'progress'. This is what I mean by keeping things in perspective.

Felix.

Jack Harrison wrote:Cotswold Cockney:

....Same with the Norfolk Swallowtails before the laws were introduced.....

Didn’t you tell me once John that you found British Swallowtail eggs on Angelica?

And Black Hairstreak eggs on Elm which initially you had assumed had to be WL Hairstreak until they emerged and all became clear? (or was it the other way round?)

Jack

Yes Jack. I remember that well. Back in the 1960s-early 70s, it was easy to find P. machaon larvae and ova on plants in untidy roadside ditches and odd neglected corners of land in East Anglia. I did indeed find four ova on Angelica sylvestris even though some of its more usual Broadlands larval foodplant Peucedanum palustre ( Milk Parsely ) was nearby. Angelica is an attractive plant. The lanes and field edges when I visted more recently are much more tidy than in "The good old days"... the foodplants are absent.

Yes Jack, it was t'other way around ~ I was searching for the Brown and Black Hairstreak ova at the time. I knew immediately what it was as the ova are quite distinct. I did not need a x10 hand lens to see what they were back then as my eyesight was very good. I found WLH ova on Prunus spinosa ( Sloe/Blackthorn ) twigs about ten feet up. I used a lightweight aluminium step ladder to search the higher branches. Brown Hairstreaks lay much lower than WLH as does the Black ... sometimes.

I raised a fine female specimen WLH which fed on the white Blackthorn flowers moving onto the leaves when the flowers started to die. I used growing foodplant. When raising Brown Hairstreaks, two or three females would smother quite large potted Blackthorns with so many of their white ova it looked like they were covered in white frost in some places.... far more than I could ever hope to raise and the surpluses were shared around with other breeders and landowners etc.

I now have my own little nature reserve which I have never released insects in although I have planted foodplants there. Had it for about twenty years. There is a select range of Butterflies and Moths breeding there quite naturally including numerous Purple Hairstreaks on two mature Oaks in the perimeter. The open areas are inhabited by good numbers of Woodmice, Rabbits and even Hares. Buzzards, Sparrow Hawks and Kestrels visit daily and some evenings, Barn Owls too. There are Blackthorn and Wild Rose thickets which numerous small birds roost in at night. Goshawks nest in woods not far away ~ the woods where as a boy I spent most of my summers chasing butterflies but although there were a good number of resident woodland species, I never saw a wood white there ~ it is in those woods today though.

Couple of years ago, after spending a day working in my 'field', just as it was starting to get dark, tired I got into my car and finished the last of the coffee in my flask. Glad I did because as I sipped my drink, I noticed a large Hawk like bird flying at the far end where the Barn Owls usually patrol. Not sure what it was and my binoculars were in the boot. However, the hawk flew up and over the car, just a few feet above the windscreen and I clearly identified it as a Goshawk. It perched in one of the Purple Hairstreak Oaks about fifty feet away from my car. After a minute or so, it dropped off the branch with closed wings and when I thought it would hit the ground it opened its wings and was now in a fast flat glide heading for the thickets where the small birds roost. It plunged into that spiney thicket and there was an 'explosion' of small birds taking flight one of which was being closely pursued by the Goshawk. The pair disappeared over the edge and i do not know the outcome. Had I remained out of the car with my drink, I would have missed that unusual event... Birds and indeed other animals do not fear cars ...

I have seen the Goshawk on more than one occasion there since, including in broad daylinght on a sunny day. The Sparrow Hawks are a more frequent visitor and are relatively tiny in comparison.

Finally, years ago when The Cross in the centre of Gloucester was not a pedestrain no traffic area, I spotted a female WHL settle in the very middle of the cross roads there and numerous passing vehicles passed it by until it flew away. There used to be fine large Wych Elms in the park not very far away and I suspect those supported WHLs as they did elsewhere in the county at that time. All those magnificent elms have disappeared years ago of course. However, on visiting an older cousin whilst she was in Gloucester Royal Hospital recently, I was delighted to see a fine, large healthy Elm tree growing by the A&E entrance. I took a picture of it :~



A magnificent tree...

I wonder if the WHLs breed on this fine solitary tree. I also looked up at the main Tower Building in the Hospital complex to see two young Peregrine Falcons flexing their wings and taking short flights around the top of the high tower usually mobbed by Herring Gulls which also nest on buildings nearby. The falcons have been breeding on the Hospital Tower Block successfully for some years now. Even on a routine visit to a City Centre, there is still interesting things to see if you know what to look for.
..

When breeding british Swallowtails back then, I made an observation which I published in the Entomologits' Record about 1970. I have not seen mention of the observation before or since although others may have observed it when raising larvae on growing Milk Parsely ( Peucedanum palustre ).

When a Swallowtail larva bites that plant, there immediately exudes a blob gummy milk coloured fluid from which the plant gets its name .... Milk ... That 'milk' sap is very viscous ~ sticky and the larvae do not like it. They vigourously wipe their jaws from side to side on a stem nearby in an effort to get rid of the sticky latex like sap from their jaws.

There's more to it than that. I was annoyed to observe that some of the larger larvae, would make their way down towards the base of the plant and bite through some of the main stems there. Annoying because that stem would start to wilt and spoil the fine plants I've so lovingly grown and prepared for them! The rascals.... The larvae would then feed from the 'wilted' parts of the plant above only this time there would not be those troublesome blobs of gummy milk to gum up their jaws when they bite. By biting those parts of the plant they feed on from lower down, they have severed and thus released much or all of the sap pressure above their bitten areas, That lack of sap pressure means that the possibility of getting a jaw full of milky gum with each bite is much reduced or even eliminated ....

Aint nature wunnerfull ...
..
P.S. I have found ova on Angelica in Norfolk and Wild Carrot in Austria. The gummy sap would not be a problem for larvae feeding on those plants although in the same family of plants as Milk Parsely .... Umbellifers IIRC... I have relied on memory alone for the spelling of these plants scientific names ... the memory is not what it once was but ....

I remember seeing (think it was on Antiques Road Trip on BBC2) one of them bought a case of dead leps and was told he wasn't allowed to sell them at auction as there were unlabled so no one knew the date (no proof of where or when they were pinned

Personally I'd boycott buying any specimin unless it was being sold at a butterfly farm and came from one of their dead stock, or you found one dead when out and about and decided to pin it, or a moth specimin dissected to find out what it is. I would never sell any dead insects I have just incase it encoutaged people to kill insects to pin. I have taken a few moths in past that I have trapped, but thats only to find out what they were (one was important as it could be a new species to Ireland and taking one could insure its population protection and knowledge that this species exists.) Have to wait on the final say on what the species is, but I don't think it could be anything else, for those interested its Acleris abietana only known from Scotland and North of England so far.