Greek Nymphalids

[Pete Eeles]

And another batch Thanks again.

Cheers,

- Pete

1. Woodland Grayling?

2. Woodland Grayling?

3. Heath Fritillary?

4. Heath Fritillary? (this is the same individual as #3)

5. ???? Fritillary?

6. ???? Grayling?

7. Delattin''s Grayling?

[cheddargeoff]

Hello Pete,

I think that your Photo No 5 may be the Glanville Fritilary (Melitaea cinxia), which is widely distributed across much of Europe.

Comparing your photo with the photo of a Glanville Fritilary on the top left of Page 218 of "Butterflies of Europe" by Tristan Lafranchis shows the following similarities, starting from the right-hand edge of the right-hand fore-wing:
(1) The first band of dark markings is distinct and reasonably straight.
(2) The second band of dark markings becomes less distinct away from the front edge.
(3) The third band of dark markings is distinct but quite wavy.
(4) Near the body, on the front edge of the wing, is a hollow loop dark marking.

If you see one again, look for central black spots in the cells near the back of the hind wings.

Best wishes,

Geoff

[Mikhail]

For no.5 I'd suggest possibly Southern Knapweed Frit., recently separated from the Knapweed, Melitaea telona or ogygia. See http://www.euroleps.ch/seiten/s_telona.htm
Misha

[Padfield]

It's late here so I'm going to come back to the frits tomorrow. The first does look good for athalia, but I'm not familiar with Greek forms of this. The other does look most like the knapweed complex but is quite different from any knapweeds I've ever seen, in wingshape and also in the marginal markings. Some research needed there on my part. I am aware of ogygia and have even kept my eyes out for it just in case it has reached my own Rhône Valley, which has a Mediterranean climate...

As for the graylings, I'd tentatively suggest aristaeus for both of the last two. If that works distributionally it certainly works from the form of the butterfly. Delattin's is similar, and all these Hipparchia species are highly variable, but if you're in range I would say aristaeus is the default there. The other one does not look like fagi. In general appearance it is far closer to alcyone, apart from the shape of the central band, which is notably flat - but alcyone doesn't fly in Greece. I would be most inclined towards syriaca.

Graylings are one of those groups where if you want to keep up with the latest splitters you have to delve into the genitals - or at least do some gentle squeezing and look at the Julian organs. My reasons for saying this doesn't look like fagi are mostly jizz, but I can point to two or three things in particular. One is the white band on the hindwing, which is relatively well defined with the outer edge more or less following the inner edge. In fagi, in France and Spain anyway, the band is far more diffuse. The white spots visible outside the band are normal in genava (my local alcyone lookalike) but not in fagi. Lastly, the eyespot is set under a well defined eyebrow in your pictures - in fagi the eybrow is more diffuse, or may even have lashes. There is a difference between the sexes here, though.

Guy

[Padfield]

FURTHER

I just followed your link, Misha (which should have an 'l' at the end, as in http://www.euroleps.ch/seiten/s_telona.html), and was interested to see that the pictures there did resemble phoebe, as I thought. All have the characteristically well developed marginal lunule in s.3 of the forewing, unlike Pete's picture (except Bild 9, which clearly doesn't show ogygia at all, but probably arduinna or maybe cinxia). There aren't that many Mellicta/Melitaea butterflies in the region, so I feel you're still right, but I'd love to see a better underside if there is one, Pete. Or even a worse underside that just shows more...

Guy

[Mikhail]

After viewing more images of telona I'm less and less convinced about the identity of Pete's butterfly. There is an interesting and amusing article on the subject at http://www.lepinet.fr/spip/actualite.php?article17&e=l.

Misha

[Padfield]

Grabbing a moment between lessons.

If I saw that fritillary chez moi I would plump for athalia. There wouldn't be any real doubt, though I would have considered parthenoides (which doesn't fly in Greece, I think). From what I can see of the underside it is Mellicta (in the old money) rather than Melitaea. The lack of an extended lunule in s3 on the ups further confirms this, as all pictures of ogygia I can find have the lunule. As I said above, even a poor picture of the underside would help clear things up.

Thanks for the link, Misha. For the non-francophones, the page tentatively suggests adult phoebe and ogygia are different on three counts: size (always a bit dodgy for ID), wing shape (more rounded forewing in ogygia, but this feature is extremely variable in phoebe anyway), and the underside black marginal markings, which are shorter in ogygia and separate. That last point looks the most interesting to explore.

The article goes on to suggest there are in fact three species here (!) and describes the more readily visible differences in the caterpillars - head colour and proleg colour.

Break over. Kids coming back.

Guy

[Pete Eeles]

Thanks for all of the very valuable comments and great discussion - I really appreciate it! Some comments / observations:

- I don't have any other photos of #5, and only questioned it when I saw it on my PC. At the time, I distinctly thought it was athalia, which is probably the safest bet. But both cinxia and, especially, telona are excellent suggestions!
- With regard to the larger Grayling spp., apparently fagi and syriaca can only be separated by genitalia, as you say Guy.
- I'm not convinced about aristaeus. volgensis seems a closer match, but I realise that there's a lot of variability here!

So - assuming I've followed this thread correctly - the following conclusion is being drawn?

1. syriaca (Eastern Rock Grayling).
2. syriaca (Eastern Rock Grayling).
3. athalia (Heath Fritillary).
4. athalia (Heath Fritillary).
5. athalia (Heath Fritillary).
6. aristaeus (Southern Grayling).
7. aristaeus (Southern Grayling).

Cheers,

- Pete

[Padfield]

I think athalia is the safest bet. Here's Pete's picture distorted to make the underside a little more visible:



I think that's one of the Mellicta group, not the Melitaea group. That only really leaves athalia, in that part of Greece...

As for the graylings, the books are pretty much agreed they can't be told apart from the outside! Tolman's photographic guide does show a fagi from North Greece and it has the characteristic broad, diffuse white band, more or less obscuring the white points, just like western European fagi. His picture of syriaca, also from North Greece, shows a narrower band with white points outside it. But the general appearance of his syriaca is quite different from Pete's picture. My conclusion: I don't know which to call. A local expert would doubtless know, being familiar with the local forms of the species.

I checked where you were on Google Earth and compared it with the distributions of aristaeus (or senthes, as it is now known by the splitters in that region) and volgensis given in Kudrna (2002). Bad news - both are recorded from very close to there. In fact, senthes is recorded precisely there and volgensis just west, beneath the south-eastern corner of Macedonia. But that most likely reflects recording rather than actual distribution. So I don't know on that one either. I understood aristaeus/senthes to be generally commoner, so I would tend to record it provisionally as that. Again, a local would know better.

Guy

[Paul]

out of interest, moth people label their "impossible to tell" ( without castration) moths as ssp "agg" for aggregate, yet I've never seen this done with butterflies.... I think in future, if I'm fortunate enough to photograph such beautiful ambivalence, I will document them as... eg... wood/ rock grayling agg. therby not commiting myself, and still finding a place to file them!!!
any thoughts???? or have I induced overwhelming sleepiness!!!!

[Padfield]

The cartographers already follow this practice, Paul. In Switzerland (see http://lepus.unine.ch/carto/) unassignable records are marked as 'aggr' for Hipparchia (fagi/alcyone/genava), Aricia (agestis/artaxerxes - surprisingly difficult here), Maculinea (alcon /rebeli) and Leptidea (reali/sinapis). Kudrna is forced to use 'agg' for several groups in his 2002 European atlas (has a more recent version of this come out yet?).

Guy

[Paul]

good, common sense, nothing new under the sun eh!

Mind you, if I were a butterfly or moth under threat of genital dissection.. you could call me anything you wanted!!!!