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My brother had a birding holiday last month in the Pyrenees. I lent him my Collins book but he has been unable to ID some of the butterflies that he saw. He asked for my help,
Can anyone ID these for me?
He thought that this might be Glanville frit I think that this one could be Marbled frit The next two he thinks are Knapweed, but I'm not so sure. The next one is PBF I think Is this a Meadow Frit? On to the other stuff. He is very keen to know what this is. I think that it could be a very worn Meadow Brown. He thinks that the next one is Marbled Skipper And this one, Oberthurs. He thinks that this is Southern Gatekeeper, but I think that it's Large Wall Brown and finally, is this Woodland Grayling? Thank you in advance.
Denise

Hi Denise... I'll have a stab at the frits, but mainly doing it to see if my IDs match those who know better... or possibly

1) Heath, possibly Meadow
2) Lesser Marbled, possibly Marbled
3) False Heath
4) False Heath
5) Lesser Marbled
6) Knapweed

I'd say that 5 is Argynnis aglaja - otherwise I agree on the Frits - though I'd still wait higher opinions.

I also agree on the Maniola jurtina and Lasiommata maera. I won't even try to comment on the Skippers and the Grayling.

Hi, here are the Swiss votes...

1 In the end, I think this is a weakly marked heath fritillary. The pd areas recall meadow fritillary, but have you ever seen a meadow fritillary with such a prominent and outsized lunule in s.3?
2 Marbled fritillary
3 False heath fritillary
4 False heath fritillary
5 Dark green fritillary
6 Knapweed fritillary
7 Meadow brown
8 Marbled skipper
9 I'd actually incline towards the cinqfoil skipper, P. cirsii. My reasons are a) this species is widespread and often common in the Iberian peninsula, including the Pyrenees; b) Oberthür's tends to have a rather bright underside with visibly bright veins; c) the un markings in ss2-3 are vestigial, characteristic of carlinae/cirsii but not so of Oberthür's. If your brother has any upperside pictures they would help...
10 Large wall brown
11 Grayling (Hipparchia semele). I cannot see woodland grayling in this butterfly at all, and most of my experience of woodland grayling comes from the Pyrenees. I've actually never seen rock grayling, since the Swiss form has been established to be a different species(!), H. genava, butI'm pretty sure it's not rock either. If I saw that in the wild I wouldn't hesitate to call it semele.

I've just got back from a day's butterflying and now have to go out again, but I shall have look later too, and see if anyone agrees or disagrees with me.

Guy

I've resaved a semele from Switzerland in the same orientation as your brother's. I think you'll agree the patterns match pretty well.



Guy

Thank you all very much.
He will be pleased to have confirmation.

Cheers
Denise

1. The marginal lunules suggest Knapweed Fritillary to me especially on the hindwing, and the prominence of the forewing lunule in s3 compared to the two adjacent ones also says Knapweed. Also the weak orange colouring is often found with Knapweed and I have not seen this with Heath, although I have seen Meadow with this type of colouring. I’m sure the size of the lunules rules out Meadow. Also Knapweed, of all the contenders, is far more prone to extreme variation.

2. I would be inclined toward Lesser Marbled Fritillary here. The borders look to be continuous (in Marbled they are more “gappy”) and the markings look slightly too delicate for Marbled. Also, if it was at altitude, it is more likely to be Lesser Marbled as this is (or can be) quite a common butterfly at the higher levels. Marbled is generally found at lower altitudes, I find.

9. If I had no knowledge of the location I might have been inclined toward Carline Skipper. It is quite common at higher reaches and the reddish-brown colouring (and I am slightly colour blind) is indicative of Carline. The marginal mark in s5 looks quite long (which I think rules out Cinquefoil and Oberthur’s) and neatly rectangular with quite a straight internal edge from what I can see, another indicator of Carline. The basal mark in s6 is not sufficiently rounded for Olive skipper, apparently ruling that out. The discal mark is empty at s2 and s3, also indicating Carline. The marginal marks in s1 and s2 are quite prominent tending to argue against Carline and Cinquefoil and in favour of Olive. The absence of visible veins tends to rule out Oberthur’s (as Guy says). June would also be rather early for Cinquefoil (Lafranchis says from mid-July) but OK for Olive which emerges in May.

However, there is one big problem: according to Lafranchis (and this must be 100% right) Carline does not occur in the Pyrenees. So, on the basis of which clues are least flawed, I would go for Olive. I have my doubts about the “oval” s6 basal spot which, when it is present, is an almost definitive indicator of Olive, but when it is a slightly rounded rectangle does not necessarily rule out Olive. As Matt says, the jury is still out on how rounded this spot needs to be for Olive. I have a photo below (18308) which I believe are both Olive but the lower has an almost perfect circular (unusual, it is normally oval, but maybe this is a camera-angle effect) spot in s6 and the upper one has a spot that could not be described as oval or even rounded. As usual with Pyrgus, no-one can say for sure.

As Guy says, one upperside picture would be invaluable.

Here is the same pic, but larger for a better look. Wow, valid points Guy and Roger. I'm learning so much about Grizzled type skippers, (Pyrgus) Another questionable Butterfly is this one. He was told by the group leader (who is a birder) that it was Mountain Ringlet, but he disagrees. What do you think? and just to confirm that I got these right for him,
Spanish Gatekeeper Pearly Heath Weavers Frit, Mazerine Blue, with another, possibly Reverdin's or SSB? Southern White Admiral ups and uns and finally possible Spanish Marbled White
I will be seeing him on Friday, so will ask if he has any ups of the skippers.
Thank you all so much for having a look.
Denise

Hi again!!

Interesting cans of worms opened up by Roger!!

For that first fritillary, I did consider knapweed, because of that lunule, but only for a millisecond (rightly or wrongly). Nothing else about the butterfly says knapweed, from the wing shape to the pattern, especially considering that the local knapweeds are occitanica. I have once seen an equally pale knapweed fritillary, in Switzerland, and I admit its wing shape was weird too, but that one screamed 'knapweed' at me:


Notice that the outer edge of the lunule is almost invariaby indented too in knapweed.

On the other hand, it is very common for heath fritillary to have a lunule that size. This is from Switzerland:



So, within my experience I would definitely plump for heath fritillary. I don't mind at all being proved wrong and broadening my experience!!

For the marbled/lesser marbled, I simply didn't look closely enough because your ID looked good, Denise, and I passed over it! Although the jizz is so good for marbled frit it does fit the bill for a thinly marked lesser marbled male and I agree that is probably what it is. In the field, of course, you don't even have to look at the butterfly - they are so different!

For the skippers, I'm reserving judgment at the moment!! This year I've seen literally dozens - many dozens - of olive skippers, and have really gained a feel for the Swiss ones, at least. I've seen them in the Pyrenees too in the past. Your brother's simply don't look like olive skippers to me.


Olive skippers - note the dark ground colour on the veins, separating the white marks.

I'm going to have to continue on another post because I can't see what I'm writing when the post gets this long - either a problem with the programme or my computer.

...

I have to say, I don't believe your serratulae at the moment, Roger! I've been through all the photos I've taken this year of this species and the veins are always the ground colour and divide the white areas:



more...

cont'd...

In the next group, the 'mountain ringlet' looks most like Piedmont ringlet to me (meolans), and the last one is (sadly?) a marbled white, Melanargia galathea.

The Plebejus blue lurking with the mazarine is not Reverdin's but either silver-stud or idas. The shape of the lunules, that Lafranchis makes a thing of, is irrelevant - they can be blunt in idas and they can be sharp in silver stud. Nevertheless, I think this one is a silve stud, as you suggest.

Guy

Back to your skippers, Denise - or your brother's - if the flight time given for cirsii is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it, except that I've seen certain Pyrgus species way outside the times Tolman gives, and have decided to ignore flight times for my own Pyrgus IDs) then I'd go with armoricanus. On your closer picture the veins are visibly brighter, though not as bright as they often are, and I don't see what else they could be. The only other possibility not yet considered is alveus. I would fairly categorically rule out serratulae, given that I am currently enjoying a bumper year for this species and now consider myself an expert... (pride goes before a fall).

Guy

Sorry - I'm monopolising this post. It interests me! Here's another pale knapweed fritillary, either from France or Switzerland, I can't remember:



It's closer to your brother's than the first one I posted. Of course, a merest glimpse of the underside would solve the question immediately! No hope of that? In the field, knapweed and heath are simply not confusable, which is why I find it so hard to be definitive about the full variation in markings.

I'll wait for Roger's (or someone else's) comments before I go further!

Guy

No problem Guy.
I need all the help that I can get.

I was thinking of going on the same trip next year, as my brother went on this year, (but for the butterflies.) Now I'm not so sure. All his ID's were given to him by the trip leader, and most of them have been wrong.

Not a great advert for the company who shall remain nameless. I'll see if he has any uns pics of that frit.
Thanks again for all the help.

Denise

It's very interesting, this identifying from photos - so much harder than in the field, despite what you might expect. What's really important is to build up an intimate knowledge of the jizz and habitat and habits of a butterfly and then you usually know what even the hard ones are long before you get close enough to worry about all those little details! This year, I've just had one problematic Pyrgus, and that was only problematic because the Swiss recorder rejected the record when Matt and I sent in the proof photos!! Funnily enough, we thought that one was armoricanus - we didn't have any doubt at all in the field - but he said he couldn't rule out alveus from the photos. Records of armoricanus are very important in Switzerland and normally have to be verified with genitalia.

Certain species require genitalia examination for conclusive acceptance of the record. Two years ago Matt and I found a 'new' colony of Erebia eriphyle and this year I took the recorder to our site to show him. Tragically, he had to take a specimen to confirm the identity. A week later he let me know it did indeed have a 100% eriphyle willy. But he has at least said he will accept any future records of eriphyle from me without any murder required!!

Guy

Re the fritillary, the one thing that bothers me about Knapweed is that the dark margin usually “follows” the shape of the lunules (i.e. going into the lunule) in Knapweed, which Denise’s one clearly does not.

The Pyrgus flight periods quoted by Tolman are by definition quite general as he is dealing with Europe, but for France, I find Lafranchis to be pretty accurate. I haven’t seen Cinquefoil Skippers yet but then I left Var on 3 July and have been in the French Alpes since then and have just got back to the UK. I usually see them in great numbers when I get back to Var at the end of August and they are usually reasonably fresh then suggesting a fairly recent emergence (although the location is at an altitude of 950m).

The internal edge of the discal mark in s4/5 looks too straight for Oberthur’s for me, and the marginal mark at s5 looks rather too long for Oberthur’s. I have also found Olive Skipper to be enjoying a bumper year and have found it in quite a few places on my route through the Alpes, but I have also found it varies quite a lot from location to location. In many cases I have had a good look at the upperside and underside. I also have a few group puddling shots which show a very significant upperside variation even within a group puddling together. Here’s one distance shot (17777) in which it is possible that all of the Pyrgus are Olive. I have seen some strange things on my travels, and will be in touch on this in the next few days. Here’s a melanic False Heath Fritillary (17421), and I think there was a melanic Meadow Fritillary on these pages a while ago. Mind you, it’s only a short hop for a False Heath Fritillary to become melanic! I’m glad you’re learning a lot about Pyrgus identification, Denise!

Can we put out a request that anyone taking a Pyrgus photo that might end up on these pages, please try to get a shot of both upperside and underside. It would make the ID task so much easier.

May I butt in? I'm afraid I've never really got to grips with Pyrgus, so can I ask you Guy or Roger to give your opinion of the attached? It was photographed in Sept. 1986 in the east Spanish Pyrenees at about 1000m. I have it down as armoricanus, partly because of the date.

Misha

Its a male, it's presumably been on the wing a while already - and take a look at those hair tufts on the end of the abdomen! Still big and bushy...

Did you consider foulquieri? You were in range for this species?

From the markings, all one can say is that it's alveus, armoricanus or foulquieri, looking most like foulquieri. If I'd been there I'd have taken that last possibility very seriously. Next best for me would be armoricanus, bearing in mind it would have been worn.

Guy

EDIT: Mmm... I've been comparing with Matt's and Tim's pictures of foulquieri and I'm not sure if yours does have enough white hairyness. This isn't a species I've seen yet, so I don't have first hand experience. I'd fall back on armoricanus, as you suggested.

Thanks Guy. Yes I had considered foulquieri as a possibility, but wasn't sure if its range in Catalonia extended into the Pyrenees. The photo was taken near Molló, north of Camprodon.

Misha

I think Camprodon is spot on for foulquieri, though Kudrna's atlas, which I usually rely on, reflects the difficulty of the species by lumping it with alveus as 'alveus complex'.

Here's my handy guide to serratulae. I might do this for all the other skippers. This picture is unfortunately slightly anomalous in that the angle of light catches the veins and makes them look slightly lighter than the ground colour. Normally, the whole thing looks uncannily unicolourous.



Guy