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Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 8:02 pm
by Denise
Just back from a fantastic week in north east Hungary. Despite two days of wind and rain, I managed at least 77 species with the group as a whole around 90.
I have started wading through my photo's and want to check on my id's before I write the trip report on my blog.
Coppers!
Large Copper, male
Large Copper female?
Purple-Shot Copper?
Purple-edged Copper?
Scarce Copper?
Mystery Copper. Possible female P-E C
Any confirmation or other help would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Denise.
PS, I have blues and fritts to go yet, so I started with the smallest group!
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 9:18 pm
by NickB
Yeah - don't want to make us TOO jealous
Some fab shots...
N
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:06 am
by Padfield
All your IDs are good, Denise!! Before last year, when I saw them in France, my only sighting of large copper was from Hungary. It's a wonderful butterfly, isn't it!
The mystery copper is female purple-edged, as you guessed. The regular row of pd spots on the forewing is characteristic and not possessed by any of the former 'Heodes' species.
I'm looking forward to the other pictures!
Guy
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:13 pm
by Charles Nicol
Keep going Denise !!
Charles
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:15 pm
by Denise
Thanks Guy for the confirmation, Coppers are wonderful butterflies.
Cheers Charles
and Nick, if you've got it, flaunt it.
Blues.
Short-tailed blue.
Reverdin's Blue
Turquoise Blue
Mazarine Blue
Silver-studded (I think)
Green-undersided Blue
I think that this is Alcon Blue
Chequered Blue (terrible pic, but as I was the only one to see one i've included it)
and the last two, I haven't got a clue.
If anyone can help with any of the ID's I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Denise
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 3:46 pm
by Padfield
Hi Denise,
Ahh! I love this! You must have had a wonderful holiday.
1-2 Short-tailed blue - definite
3-4 Reverdin's blue - definite (and note: it is on the foodplant, crown vetch)
5 Turquoise blue - definite
6-7 Mazarine blue - definite
8-9 Silver-studded blue - I'm pretty happy with these IDs, though Plebejus is difficult on just an underside view and these are not so clear-cut as your Reverdin's blues
10-11 Green underside blue - I readily believe you if you saw a bit more of the underside of the butterfly. From those views alone I can't rule out mazarine. It is curious to see fresh green-underside so late in the year - they're well over in Switzerland, and Hungary is hotter...
12 Alcon blue - Definitely not! This is Plebejus again. Those do look like some blue scales, which rules out zephyr, and the ups rule out silver-stud. That leaves Reverdin's and idas. It actually seems to hover half-way between the two and is the sort of butterfly I identify in the field by other clues like flora and the rest of the colony. Given that I can't do that here I tend towards a slightly anomalous Reverdin's, on the grounds that you have already recorded definite Reverdin's.
13 Chequered blue - definite
14 Purple-shot copper (note the three spots in the underside forewing cell - characteristic of the coppers)
15 My instinct is female mazarine blue.
Guy
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:03 pm
by Denise
Quote,
12 Alcon blue - Definitely not! This is Plebejus again. Those do look like some blue scales, which rules out zephyr, and the ups rule out silver-stud. That leaves Reverdin's and idas. It actually seems to hover half-way between the two and is the sort of butterfly I identify in the field by other clues like flora and the rest of the colony. Given that I can't do that here I tend towards a slightly anomalous Reverdin's, on the grounds that you have already recorded definite Reverdin's. Quote.
I did actually mean Idas.
Rob from Farm Lator pointed it out to me.
So sorry, in the excitement of sorting through the 900+ photo's that I took, I mixed up the numbers.
10-11 definite Green undersided Blue. A group of them were mud puddling and we had side by side comparisons with both sexes of Mazarine.
Thanks for confirmation on the other two. I have loads more photo's that I'm not quite sure of, so when I get a spare few hours, I'll have a bash at the fritillarys.
The other stuff like gliders, skippers and graylings/browns I think are sorted now.
Thank you Guy
Denise
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:19 pm
by Padfield
That makes sense. Idas is more variable than Reverdin's, so a vaguely unplaceable individual like this one (very different from the idas in Switzerland) is more likely to be idas than Reverdin's.
So if those were definite green-underside blues it suggests a rather late season, doesn' it? In CH that is one of the first blues on the wing in the Spring and I haven't seen one for weeks now.
Guy
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:44 pm
by Denise
padfield wrote:
So if those were definite green-underside blues it suggests a rather late season, doesn' it? In CH that is one of the first blues on the wing in the Spring and I haven't seen one for weeks now.
Guy
We actually saw 8 Green undersided Blue in that valley and quite a few in the fields around the first hotel, but never in great numbers, and I must admit that I saw quite a lot of tatty ones so they will be over soon, if not already after the torrential rain that I believe is still going on now. It's a cracking butterfly though.
Denise
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:46 pm
by Rogerdodge
Denise
What a brilliant trip.
Please keep posting your shots - I am green with envy.
Roger
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:07 pm
by xmilehigh
Hi,
Looks like you had a great time & got some awesome shots to
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 8:22 pm
by Shirley Roulston
Hi Denise,
Beautiful photos and glad you had a nice time, was it an organised holiday?
Shirley
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 9:09 pm
by Denise
Thank you folks.
Fritillary's are my next lot of ID's Bit of a nightmare actually as there were so many, I didn't know which way to turn
Shirley, yes it was an organised holiday with Naturetrek.
When I have finished sorting out the ID's, I will post a trip report on my blog with the best photo's.
I found some real goodies, but I'll keep you guessing till then.
Denise
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:13 am
by Charles Nicol
when I get a spare few hours, I'll have a bash at the fritillarys.
Denise
What do we want ? FRITILLARIES !! When do we want them ? NOW !!!
Charles
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 10:52 am
by Denise
OK, so here are a few of the fritillaries.
Some I think I know, but the small dark ones are a pain in the rear from photo's. Funny thing is that I could tell the difference between Heath, Assmann's and Nickerl's in the field, and the two Marbled species that I saw look more like Weaver's in the photo's and I haven't got that on my list.
The easy ones first.
Queen of Spain uns
and ups.
Pearl-bordered Frtiillary
High Brown uns
and ups
Dark Green Fritillary
medium sized frit, didn't see the uns
and now a selection of the small dark ones.
They all look like this on the upper side.
Heath I think
I'm not sure but this might be Assman's.
And this might be Nickerel's
Lastly here is the mystery frit that I thought was a marbled species but now I don't know, it looks more like Weaver's.
Please can you confirm or correct my ID's.
Thanks
Denise
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 11:44 am
by Pete Eeles
Here's my stab - I'm sure Guy will correct me before the day is out
1. Queen of Spain.
2. Queen of Spain.
3. Pearl-bordered.
4. High Brown.
5. High Brown.
6. Dark Green.
7. Weaver's.
8. Heath.
9. Heath.
10. Heath.
11. Heath.
12. Weaver's.
Cheers,
- Pete
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 12:58 pm
by Padfield
As it happens, Pete, I agree with you!
The Weaver's frits are certain - Denise, the hindwing shape is a key giveaway, quite apart fom the general jizz.
However, the four
Mellicta butterflies, that Pete correctly defaults to heath, might need some more work. The upperside picture certainly strikes me intuitively as heath, even though it is so dark. It's worth mentioning that
aurelia (Nickerl's) in the field is really
very different from heath frit - one of those that if you're not quite sure, it probably isn't. They are small, dully dark, and rather weak fliers. Tim, Matt and I spent hours pouring over each other's photos of butterflies we thought might be, then when Matt and I eventually saw them in the field we realised instantly that everything we had previously classed as Nickerl's wasn't!! Of course, they might be different in Hungary...
Here are a couple of Swiss Nickerl's frits, for comparison:
(thanks again, Jerry!!)
I've got a bus to catch so must come back to the undersides later, but in the meantime, it would be excellent if you had any of the local heath frits, ups and uns, to compare with. That species is so incredibly variable it is always useful to have a local
point de repère, as they say round here!
Guy
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:45 pm
by Denise
I am a little embarrassed to say that here in the UK, I am used to seeing one or two species of frit at a time, and in Hungary, I was totally overwhelmed by the sheer number of species on the wing at the same time, with good numbers of each species!
I made an effort to try and get upper and under shots of as much as I could, but the frits let me down, (or rather, I let them down) I know what I saw in the field as the trip leaders went to great pains to net at least one of each species to point out the differences, but I didn't get to photograph them all.
I have started on my trip report which I will post on my blog soon.
Denise
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:05 pm
by Padfield
Back home again!!
I'm coming to the conclusion that the first and third of your
Mellicta butterflies might well be
britomartis (Assmann's). If you were in the East of Hungary you were in range, and they compare very favourably with Matt's
britomartis here:
http://www.eurobutterflies.com/species_ ... martis.htm. I can't see them as
aurelia (Nickerl's), apart from anything else because of the lack of orange on the palpi. Here are a couple of photos of the palpi of
aurelia from Switzerand:
These are two different individuals.
But that third underside, with its heavy black around the submarginal orange lunules, looks very good to me for
britomartis, and this has black undersides to the palpi.
I'll ask Matt what he thinks, as he's identified them in the field from their genitalia (without harming the butterflies, though doubtless they felt a little exposed at the time!
)
Guy
Re: Hungary 15-23 June.
Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:23 pm
by Denise
I have now posted my trip report.
http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/phpBB2/b ... 1337&b=325
It's a bit long
Denise