www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

This is probably aimed at Guy and JKT

Attached is pic of a Skipper - Grizzled I thought but today I took delivery of 'Butterflies of Europe' (many thanks Denise for the link and advice) and I am now not at all sure. This was taken along with all of my other pics in Tuscany ....... can you help?

I have visited both of your most excellent websites today but still remain unsure.

Mike

To me it looks like P. malvae (or malvoides - can't tell them apart), but this is a group I'm especially lousy at.

onopordi??????

Thanks guys

I wondered if it could be onopordi but the book tells me unlikely in Italy. There are just so many similar Skippers it seems that if you haven't photographed it from every angle there's possibility you'll never be sure - and I was quite happy with the thought that it was just another malvae!!!!
I'm trying not to study the 6 or so blues we've photographed but I guess I might have to come back for assistance again.

Mike

I'm trying to nurse a cold in bed but I got caught up in Silent Witness and then had to check my e-mails, as I was watching the telly through my laptop wired up to the box...

Pyrgus from ups only is very difficult (Pyrgus is very difficult). And you can ignore any flight times given in the books - they are almost never right. The hindwing markings on this butterfly suggest armoricanus to me. The insect is broadly compatible with onopordi but the shape of the hw white marks inclines me away from that. The hindwing markings are not bright and clear enough for malvoides in my opinion but I certainly wouldn't want to set myself up against someone else's opinion on that - I only really came to grips with malvoides this year.

All in all, I'd plump for armoricanus. I'll have another look tomorrow, if I can shake off this cold...

Guy

Oh so it's you I got this from - must be a virus!!!!!!!

I've got a stinker hence the time on the computer (3 times today) - but many thanks Guy

Mike

Curiously, I have a photo almost identical to this, with my commentary below, almost echoing the views expressed here: http://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/html ... -_onopordi_

I would be fairly confident (I use the term very loosely when referring to pyrgus) that it is either onopordi or armoricanus. You really need an underside shot, but this is often impossible. It looks to be female to me, based on body shape and curvature, but the end of the abdomen is not clearly in view. I find onopordi to be an early species, out at the end of April in Var but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it later than the end of May.

I’ve just got back from Var and am sorting through my 2008 photos (172 species) and I always leave the pyrgus ones till last…

Here’s a similar one from this year that I feel is female onopordi (10227). The truth is that you will probably never know.

Roger Gibbons wrote:The truth is that you will probably never know.

'Fraid so!!

Unless you happen to have an uns shot - even a bad one. If we're agreed it's probably armoricanus or onopordi, any shot of the underside hindwing would be instantly conclusive. It would also help rule out a weakly marked malvoides.

Guy

This seems to be my only ups shot of female onopordi.



This is the unmistakeable underside:



Guy

Many thanks guys and esp. to you Guy for your time and effort

I'll put this one down as a possible??? and try not to bother you again (well until the next time)

Hope you are feeling better Guy - mine seems to be improving.

Mike

Thanks, Mike - yes the cold is improving. The problem is, as a teacher I only get paid if I spend all day waving my arms around and talking b******s. Both these activities are bad for colds and sore throats - especially the talking bit. I'm proud to say i've never taken a day off work in my life.

Guy

Roger Gibbons wrote:I find onopordi to be an early species, out at the end of April in Var but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it later than the end of May.

Just as a postscript to this discussion, because we'll probably never know the truth, it is perhaps worth adding that onopordi is double-brooded in Switzerland, flying in April-May and then again in August and perhaps September (I've not looked for it in September but I've seen and photographed it in August).

Guy

Thanks Guy and all of you that have contriuted....

It's just great having this level of support.

Mike