Any ideas what these are?
Any ideas what these are?
Some of these were seen puddling at a stream in the Pyrenees in early September, others were in the Lot valley or higher in the Pyrenees.
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Padfield
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Let me kick-start the discussion with some suggestions. Please contradict me, anyone, if you disagree!!
1 Erebia hispania (rondui) This is a classic Pyrenean ringlet. It would be nice to see the underside to confirm identity, but that is my guess.
2 Clossiana dia
3 Clossiana dia
4 I suspect this is a chalkhill blue, Lysandra coridon. L. hispana does fly in the Pyrenees and I wouldn't like to call it from just this view but I think it is coridon.
5 Aricia artaxerxes
6 Most of this group are common blues, Polyommatus icarus. There is a chalkhill blue in the foreground.
7 The nearest and furthest insects are chalkhill blues, the rest common blues.
8 All common blues except the nearest, which is a chalkhill blue.
9-11 One common blue, two artaxerxes and one chalkhill blue.
12 Chalkhill blue
13 Left: artaxerxes. Then chalkhill blues and finally a common blue on the right.
14 Same insects.
15 The one in the middle is a turquoise blue, Plebicula dorylas. To the left is (probably) artaxerxes again (might be agestis) and the one on the right is pretty well impossible to do, but I would say coridon.
16 Pyrgus armoricanus (I am not at all confident about doing Pyrgus from ups alone, or even at all!!)
17 Very tentatively: P. serratulae...
18 Hipparchia fagi. This and alcyone are notoriously difficult to separate by appearance alone, and both are quite variable. But fagi is the only one of the pair I have seen myself in the Pyrenees and the ones I have seen look exactly like this. I have seen alcyone in the Alps (or genava, as some books have my local ones) and they look quite different.
Guy
1 Erebia hispania (rondui) This is a classic Pyrenean ringlet. It would be nice to see the underside to confirm identity, but that is my guess.
2 Clossiana dia
3 Clossiana dia
4 I suspect this is a chalkhill blue, Lysandra coridon. L. hispana does fly in the Pyrenees and I wouldn't like to call it from just this view but I think it is coridon.
5 Aricia artaxerxes
6 Most of this group are common blues, Polyommatus icarus. There is a chalkhill blue in the foreground.
7 The nearest and furthest insects are chalkhill blues, the rest common blues.
8 All common blues except the nearest, which is a chalkhill blue.
9-11 One common blue, two artaxerxes and one chalkhill blue.
12 Chalkhill blue
13 Left: artaxerxes. Then chalkhill blues and finally a common blue on the right.
14 Same insects.
15 The one in the middle is a turquoise blue, Plebicula dorylas. To the left is (probably) artaxerxes again (might be agestis) and the one on the right is pretty well impossible to do, but I would say coridon.
16 Pyrgus armoricanus (I am not at all confident about doing Pyrgus from ups alone, or even at all!!)
17 Very tentatively: P. serratulae...
18 Hipparchia fagi. This and alcyone are notoriously difficult to separate by appearance alone, and both are quite variable. But fagi is the only one of the pair I have seen myself in the Pyrenees and the ones I have seen look exactly like this. I have seen alcyone in the Alps (or genava, as some books have my local ones) and they look quite different.
Guy
Thanks
Really helpful comments. Thanks so much!
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Roger Gibbons
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I wouldn’t dream of disagreeing with anyone, but offer these thoughts:
The erebia: The red upf band seems very circular for a Pyrenees brassy ringlet E. rondoui (which now seems to be treated a separate species to the Spanish brassy ringlet E. hispania), whereas I would have expected it to extend further downward, and the uph ocelli (eye-spots) are quite centrally located in the red patches, both maybe suggesting a common brassy ringlet E. cassioides. Hard to say whether the upf ocelli are fused enough for rondoui, but I would lean towards not. Against that, it is quite brightly marked for cassioides and lacking the brassy sheen. I have some very similar photos taken in the Pyrenees this year.
The first pyrgus seems good for the so-called cinquefoil skipper P. cirsii, as the upf cell spot is very wide and an almost-regular rectangle, and the other white marks are strong, too. The uph marks look strong enough for cirsii, too.
The second pyrgus is a female and the forewing would be quite strongly marked for an olive skipper P. serratulae, especially in s1 and s2. I wonder if large grizzled skipper P. alveus is an option. The sandy colouring suggests Oberthurs grizzled skipper P. armoricanus even though the uph is virtually unmarked, and this would be what I would guess if I really had to.
As is usually the case with pyrgus, an upperside and underside view are needed to enable ID with any degree of confidence, and maybe not even then. Luckily, the butterflies themselves don’t have to rely on humans to ID potential mates.
The answer to the question “what do butterfliers do in the winter” is quite simple: try and work out what they have seen the previous summer!
The erebia: The red upf band seems very circular for a Pyrenees brassy ringlet E. rondoui (which now seems to be treated a separate species to the Spanish brassy ringlet E. hispania), whereas I would have expected it to extend further downward, and the uph ocelli (eye-spots) are quite centrally located in the red patches, both maybe suggesting a common brassy ringlet E. cassioides. Hard to say whether the upf ocelli are fused enough for rondoui, but I would lean towards not. Against that, it is quite brightly marked for cassioides and lacking the brassy sheen. I have some very similar photos taken in the Pyrenees this year.
The first pyrgus seems good for the so-called cinquefoil skipper P. cirsii, as the upf cell spot is very wide and an almost-regular rectangle, and the other white marks are strong, too. The uph marks look strong enough for cirsii, too.
The second pyrgus is a female and the forewing would be quite strongly marked for an olive skipper P. serratulae, especially in s1 and s2. I wonder if large grizzled skipper P. alveus is an option. The sandy colouring suggests Oberthurs grizzled skipper P. armoricanus even though the uph is virtually unmarked, and this would be what I would guess if I really had to.
As is usually the case with pyrgus, an upperside and underside view are needed to enable ID with any degree of confidence, and maybe not even then. Luckily, the butterflies themselves don’t have to rely on humans to ID potential mates.
The answer to the question “what do butterfliers do in the winter” is quite simple: try and work out what they have seen the previous summer!
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Padfield
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I agree with these comments - they reflect doubts I had too.
For the Erebia, I thought exactly the same, but settled on Spanish brassy (or whatever!) in the absence of seeing the underside at all. For comparison, here is a cassioides I took in the Pyrenees:
First skipper: I did think of cirsii but the 'sinuous' mark seemed too disconnected. Not sure about that...
Second skipper: Where I visit in the Pyrenees (Val d'Aran) the large grizzleds are all centralhispaniae and quite different from this one. They are well-marked on the uph.
Again, uns would be great - even bad photos or rubbish views.
Guy
For the Erebia, I thought exactly the same, but settled on Spanish brassy (or whatever!) in the absence of seeing the underside at all. For comparison, here is a cassioides I took in the Pyrenees:
First skipper: I did think of cirsii but the 'sinuous' mark seemed too disconnected. Not sure about that...
Second skipper: Where I visit in the Pyrenees (Val d'Aran) the large grizzleds are all centralhispaniae and quite different from this one. They are well-marked on the uph.
Again, uns would be great - even bad photos or rubbish views.
Guy