Paul
The 'Sites' area has been sabotaged !!!
The 'Sites' area has been sabotaged !!!
I have just been checking out the sites around Oxon/Bucks and when I clicked on the link I found where you can 'Rate This Site' there have been a few 'non-butterflies' have been added and 5-stars given to most of the sites
Paul
Paul
-
Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6763
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
Thanks for notifying me Paul - I'll fix this ASAP. I thought I'd let visitors rate the site directly without me having to intervene, but it looks like this is going to have to be a 2-stage process with me validating entries before they get posted.
I'm sad to say that whoever has done this knows their butterflies - adding some valid names in places. Anyway - site rating is temporarily disabled until I get to sorting this out.
Cheers,
- Pete
I'm sad to say that whoever has done this knows their butterflies - adding some valid names in places. Anyway - site rating is temporarily disabled until I get to sorting this out.
Cheers,
- Pete
-
m_galathea
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:28 pm
- Location: West Sussex
- Contact:
Hi,
Although I wouldn't condone the actions of those who altered the 'Sites' page, there is the possibility that they may be annoyed at the obsession with visiting top sites that some (and by no means all) users of this forum have. I can fully understand people travelling around to see different species, but there are hundreds of good places to visit that arn't listed here. Don't forget, a lot of people read this site, and it was only recently Pete that you had to put a notice on the front page about people trampling plants at Whitecross Green Wood.
I think that half of the problem is that there are those who enjoy finding unknown colonies of Purple Emperor for example, and those who just drive to Bentley Wood because it's there.
I hope I haven't annoyed anyone by saying this, but I'm interested to know everyone's feelings.
Alexander
Although I wouldn't condone the actions of those who altered the 'Sites' page, there is the possibility that they may be annoyed at the obsession with visiting top sites that some (and by no means all) users of this forum have. I can fully understand people travelling around to see different species, but there are hundreds of good places to visit that arn't listed here. Don't forget, a lot of people read this site, and it was only recently Pete that you had to put a notice on the front page about people trampling plants at Whitecross Green Wood.
I think that half of the problem is that there are those who enjoy finding unknown colonies of Purple Emperor for example, and those who just drive to Bentley Wood because it's there.
I hope I haven't annoyed anyone by saying this, but I'm interested to know everyone's feelings.
Alexander
-
Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6763
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
Thanks for the comments Alexander - interesting theory. The sites listed on UK Butterflies are listed because (in general) they are listed elsewhere on the web - either through Butterfly Conservation, the Wildlife Trusts etc. I've simply brought the information together. I've never listed (and never intend to list) sensitive sites and private sites.m_galathea wrote:Hi,
Although I wouldn't condone the actions of those who altered the 'Sites' page, there is the possibility that they may be annoyed at the obsession with visiting top sites that some (and by no means all) users of this forum have. I can fully understand people travelling around to see different species, but there are hundreds of good places to visit that arn't listed here. Don't forget, a lot of people read this site, and it was only recently Pete that you had to put a notice on the front page about people trampling plants at Whitecross Green Wood.
I think that half of the problem is that there are those who enjoy finding unknown colonies of Purple Emperor for example, and those who just drive to Bentley Wood because it's there.
I hope I haven't annoyed anyone by saying this, but I'm interested to know everyone's feelings.
Alexander
My assumption is that, like BC and other conservation organisations, raising awareness provides a greater benefit (= funding, usually!) than the negative result of too many people visiting sites. I'm sure if the latter became a real problem then the sites would restrict their access.
Anyway - please keep the comments coming. I've obviously annoyed some malicious soul out there.
Cheers,
- Pete
Hi Alexander!
I read your post in a slightly different way! Sounds to me as if you're being a bit 'superior' towards those who go to places such as Bentley Wood to see their target species! Indeed, you even anticipate annoying some readers. I'm not annoyed but am prepared to chew the cud with you!
One day I will want to see Chequered Skipper or Scotch Argus for example. I'm not in a huge hurry but, hopefully, I will make what will be a very long journey one of these days! Naturally enough I will want to maximise my chances of seeing my butterfly and this is exactly what I would use the recommended sites feature for on these pages!
Most, if not all, of these sites are either local or national nature reserves. And this of course is their very function: to maintain a habitat where species can thrive and a place where people can go and enjoy seeing this wildlife. I think the wardens and workers involved with these reserves would soon wonder about the purpose of their work if too few people came to appreciate what was there! Your example of Whitecross Green Wood is not one that relates to visitor numbers, surely; more a case of what some of the less thoughtless visitors do when they get there. On my visits this summer to many of the sites (publicised here) I have often found I've had the place to myself for hours!
I would think that most other promising habitats for butterflies outside of these reserves would be privately owned land, so I'm intrigued to hear you refer to "hundreds of good places that aren't listed". You must be referring to very local knowledge in that case.
Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick! You may enjoy knowing about butterfly places that many others do not, and good luck to you! But if everybody had this 'possessive' approach towards their passion, I'm sure it would be worse for the long-term interest of the butterflies. What their future depends on is a wider awareness of their plight and more people showing an interest - this is exactly the job nature reserves try to do!
Bryan
I read your post in a slightly different way! Sounds to me as if you're being a bit 'superior' towards those who go to places such as Bentley Wood to see their target species! Indeed, you even anticipate annoying some readers. I'm not annoyed but am prepared to chew the cud with you!
One day I will want to see Chequered Skipper or Scotch Argus for example. I'm not in a huge hurry but, hopefully, I will make what will be a very long journey one of these days! Naturally enough I will want to maximise my chances of seeing my butterfly and this is exactly what I would use the recommended sites feature for on these pages!
Most, if not all, of these sites are either local or national nature reserves. And this of course is their very function: to maintain a habitat where species can thrive and a place where people can go and enjoy seeing this wildlife. I think the wardens and workers involved with these reserves would soon wonder about the purpose of their work if too few people came to appreciate what was there! Your example of Whitecross Green Wood is not one that relates to visitor numbers, surely; more a case of what some of the less thoughtless visitors do when they get there. On my visits this summer to many of the sites (publicised here) I have often found I've had the place to myself for hours!
I would think that most other promising habitats for butterflies outside of these reserves would be privately owned land, so I'm intrigued to hear you refer to "hundreds of good places that aren't listed". You must be referring to very local knowledge in that case.
Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick! You may enjoy knowing about butterfly places that many others do not, and good luck to you! But if everybody had this 'possessive' approach towards their passion, I'm sure it would be worse for the long-term interest of the butterflies. What their future depends on is a wider awareness of their plight and more people showing an interest - this is exactly the job nature reserves try to do!
Bryan
-
Padfield
- Administrator
- Posts: 8154
- Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:19 pm
- Location: Leysin, Switzerland
- Contact:
Sidestepping the direct issue, it seems to me that in terms of natural history, Britain is increasingly a country of 'sites', separated by by often quite barren urban and arable deserts. In most of the South, wilderness has been almost completely eradicated and naturalists spend an unhealthy amount of time jumping into their cars and driving to designated locations to find cornered species. I don't mean at all to criticise the naturalists - rather, it is decades of grossly negligent countryside management (and iniquitous agricultural policies) that have forced this sad state. Inevitably, there is massive and unnatural pressure on the 'sites', though these are in general superbly managed and wonderful places to visit.m_galathea wrote:...I'm interested to know everyone's feelings.
Consider Martlesham Heath, for example, a 'site' near my family home in Suffolk, well known for its silver-studded blues and listed on UK Butterflies. As a boy, I got lost on that heath, which was part of a massive complex of sandling heathland in the Suffolk Coastal region. I wandered all over it, finding graylings and silver-studs and green hairstreaks and creeping up on green woodpeckers as they searched for ants. The last time I tried to visit (by bicycle, from Woodbridge) I got lost in housing estates and actually failed to find the pocket handkerchief of heathland left there (so I've no idea how well-managed that site is). A protected area has (apparently) been created but something far, far greater has been lost, probably for ever - the integrity of the Suffolk sandling heaths.
I currently live in the Swiss Alps, though I intend to return to Suffolk in due course. I have 64 species of butterfly in my small garden here, not because it is particularly brilliant habitat (though I manage it with butterflies in mind) but because the countryside in general is relatively intact all around it, despite the regrettable fact new chalets seem to be popping up like mushrooms all over the place. I walk my dog in the local woods every day and get surprises all the time - every year I discover more things I never knew flew here. I've never learned to drive and could happily spend all my time exploring my local region. The Swiss plateau, by contrast, has gone the way of Britain, with the actual numbers of butterflies flying there (not number of species) reduced to less than 1% of what they were at the beginning of the 20th century.
In short, my feeling is that this present 'sites' problem is a symptom of a greater malaise that breaks my heart - the sterile fragmentation of natural areas in Britain. If anyone has a solution for that I will fight vigorously on their side.
Guy
It's always difficult to know where to draw the line with trampled undergrowth. I visited Hazelbury this afternoon for an hour and there's a fair bit of trampling been going on. Marsh fritillaries do well there, and there's evidence of continued growth in numbers. But the foodplant, devil's bit scabious, is conspicuous enough to be avoided. Small blue on the other hand used to be there in reasonable numbers, or so I've been told, but I saw none this year and only had second hand evidence of one individual being sighted there. Kidney vetch is short, not always eaasy to spot and is easily trampled. While the plant may recover the larvae probably don't.
Horseshoe vetch, the foodplant of adonis and chalkhill blues is probably somewhere in between, being moderately easy to spot and avoid. Chalkhill numbers are down at Hazelbury over last year, but I noticed they were way down elsewhere too so it's probably the wet summer that affected them.
As for myself, I try to keep to established paths or tracks that have already been made. This helps limit damage, and an added benefit: I also get bitten less!
On the fragmentation of the countryside, much of this could be ameliorated by sensible use of wildlife corridors. Recent farming set aside schemes have been started in my area that are already showing promise. But there are city parks everywhere that are virtual deserts of short grass, where the use of mowers should be limited by law.
It says everything that this government does not have a policy on population. I am retired but I would happily go back to work for another five years if it meant that the country's burgeoning population could be cut by a third thereby reducing the pressure on the countryside for housing etc.
Horseshoe vetch, the foodplant of adonis and chalkhill blues is probably somewhere in between, being moderately easy to spot and avoid. Chalkhill numbers are down at Hazelbury over last year, but I noticed they were way down elsewhere too so it's probably the wet summer that affected them.
As for myself, I try to keep to established paths or tracks that have already been made. This helps limit damage, and an added benefit: I also get bitten less!
On the fragmentation of the countryside, much of this could be ameliorated by sensible use of wildlife corridors. Recent farming set aside schemes have been started in my area that are already showing promise. But there are city parks everywhere that are virtual deserts of short grass, where the use of mowers should be limited by law.
It says everything that this government does not have a policy on population. I am retired but I would happily go back to work for another five years if it meant that the country's burgeoning population could be cut by a third thereby reducing the pressure on the countryside for housing etc.
-
m_galathea
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:28 pm
- Location: West Sussex
- Contact:
I'm glad this has produced some conversation!
I wasn't trying to annoy anyone, and I'm certainly not trying to be superior. It's just that sometimes I get the feeling that some people with a real interest in butterflies think that there are few places where certain species can be found, but there needn't be an obsession with the best sites.
I agree that promoting sites is a good thing, and that the benefits outweigh the bad points. I too sometimes go to advertised sites, but rarely need to. I've found all sorts just by finding good quality habitats and on occasion using a bit of patience (A.iris and WLH in particular!) My point was the obsession.
Guy, you're absolutely right about the way that the countryside here has been eradicated bit by bit. I recently went to Slovenia, saw how continuous the habitats were, and the wildlife that went with that. Saying that, there really are hundreds of places of great interest to the butterfly watchers not listed here. After all, users of the forum often discuss them which is good. I think perhaps listing more sites (and getting rid of star ratings) could help the problem but I'm not really sure.
Eccles, I agree with your thoughts here.
Alexander
I wasn't trying to annoy anyone, and I'm certainly not trying to be superior. It's just that sometimes I get the feeling that some people with a real interest in butterflies think that there are few places where certain species can be found, but there needn't be an obsession with the best sites.
I agree that promoting sites is a good thing, and that the benefits outweigh the bad points. I too sometimes go to advertised sites, but rarely need to. I've found all sorts just by finding good quality habitats and on occasion using a bit of patience (A.iris and WLH in particular!) My point was the obsession.
Guy, you're absolutely right about the way that the countryside here has been eradicated bit by bit. I recently went to Slovenia, saw how continuous the habitats were, and the wildlife that went with that. Saying that, there really are hundreds of places of great interest to the butterfly watchers not listed here. After all, users of the forum often discuss them which is good. I think perhaps listing more sites (and getting rid of star ratings) could help the problem but I'm not really sure.
Eccles, I agree with your thoughts here.
Alexander
-
Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6763
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
Hi Alexander - good conversation, as you say!m_galathea wrote:I think perhaps listing more sites (and getting rid of star ratings) could help the problem but I'm not really sure.
I'm still not sure what "the problem" is. In general, I'm unaware of any problem being caused by too many visitors appearing at well-publicised sites or of unknown sites being under-recorded. Of course, there are exceptions, such as trampling of foodplant at Whitecross Green Wood, or a lack of information regarding White-letter Hairstreak populations. But these seem to be the exception, rather than the norm.
I personally think that fostering an interest in butterflies, (less so, moths) and their habitats, in line with the aims of Butterfly Conservation, results in a greater awareness and appreciation that ultimately results (directly or indirectly) in appropriate action being taken with respect to conservation. One way to do this (I believe) is to provide information regarding good butterfly sites.
Anyway - thanks again for at least coming forward with an opinion!
Cheers,
- Pete
I'd certainly like to see more sites listed. It's not only the threatened species that are good to see either. The "is it or isn't it?" ID threads for essex skipper is a case in point. Mark at Bath finally found this butterfly at a fairly new reserve at Warmley near Bristol. It's good for essex as well as small and large skipper, but it's also good for marbled white, meadow brown, gatekeeper and speckled wood. There's a large pond there supporting several dragonfly species.
Hazelbury is well known amongst the Bristol & Bath members of this site, but it's not large so could suffer from too much exposure.
The oddest one is Odd Down park and Ride Car Park on the outskirts of Bath. The grass verges are full of kidney vetch, and whether by design or good fortune, they have a small but seemingly stable population of small blue.
Hazelbury is well known amongst the Bristol & Bath members of this site, but it's not large so could suffer from too much exposure.
The oddest one is Odd Down park and Ride Car Park on the outskirts of Bath. The grass verges are full of kidney vetch, and whether by design or good fortune, they have a small but seemingly stable population of small blue.
On the WLH thing, I visited Red Lodge Wood last week and met a woman doing a transect. She pointed me out to a couple of elms, showing leaf damage and even a black husk of an empty WLH egg. I'd missed this year's emergence but it's one to remember for next year, and I got some great shots of male and female brimstone there.
It might soon deteriorate, Alexander. I feel a poem coming onm_galathea wrote:I'm glad this has produced some conversation!
Alexander
What's really depressing in view of the desirability of fostering a wider interest in butterflies is this: there are just over 100 employees at my workplace. Only one I know of shares my interest to any degree in wildlife. The great majority think it truly hilarious that, as an adult, I should spend any part of my free time scouring the countryside for butterflies.
I don't think we need to worry about 'sites' becoming over-visited. I prefer to do my butterflying on Saturdays. I can rest assured that the rest of the nation is busy battling for parking places in towns and cities - in pursuit of the national preoccupation: conspicuous consumption of luxury goods! I tend to find that I have the countryside to myself.
Bryan
-
m_galathea
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:28 pm
- Location: West Sussex
- Contact:
You're dead right Bryan, that is the most worrying thing.
Pete, My initial 'problem' was that some people appear to only consider going to 'good sites' and hence often traveling long distances, (and normally by car too). I would like to see more people to think about their local area, or even if they are going to travel to find a different species, to have an appreciation of the habitat of the area, and not just knowing where the site is. (thinking about Bryan's comment above I realised this probably is a bit optimistic!)
There is lots of good 'local chat' always to be found on this site which I like, but some people even then want to be given precise infomation, right down to which parts of a hillside to look at which I do find a bit over the top.
I thought that advertising more locations would help, although looking at the galleries page it doesn't look it does. Out of 11 Purple Emperor pictures taken in the UK, over half (6) of them were from Bentley Wood, but there are 28 listed PE locations on the sites page. You are right though, if it gets people interested then that's what matters!
Alexander
Pete, My initial 'problem' was that some people appear to only consider going to 'good sites' and hence often traveling long distances, (and normally by car too). I would like to see more people to think about their local area, or even if they are going to travel to find a different species, to have an appreciation of the habitat of the area, and not just knowing where the site is. (thinking about Bryan's comment above I realised this probably is a bit optimistic!)
There is lots of good 'local chat' always to be found on this site which I like, but some people even then want to be given precise infomation, right down to which parts of a hillside to look at which I do find a bit over the top.
I thought that advertising more locations would help, although looking at the galleries page it doesn't look it does. Out of 11 Purple Emperor pictures taken in the UK, over half (6) of them were from Bentley Wood, but there are 28 listed PE locations on the sites page. You are right though, if it gets people interested then that's what matters!
Alexander
Hi Alexander,
I also look for butterflies very locally - if no-one knows that the scarcer butterflies are there, the sites do not get protected, and my local environment deteriorates. It can be surprisingly productive. This year I have found new sites for Green, White-letter and Purple Hairstreaks, Dingy and Grizzled Skippers, within five miles of home.
I wonder how well known butterfly distribution is. OS Explorer Map 143 covers the chalk areas of west Wiltshire. There are large expanses of private land, presumably downland, given 'right to roam' access since 2000 - I suspect few of these places have ever been explored for butterflies before. I tried one this spring and found Marsh Fritillary and Adonis Blue there.
However I find well-known sites educational; I can learn from watching the butterflies and from talking to the other people watching them. When the time comes for me to look for the Purple Emperor around here I will start by going to see it at somewhere like Bentley Wood; I can pick up more quickly to help me find it locally from watching the butterfly and seeing what sort of places it frequents than by reading about it.
I also look for butterflies very locally - if no-one knows that the scarcer butterflies are there, the sites do not get protected, and my local environment deteriorates. It can be surprisingly productive. This year I have found new sites for Green, White-letter and Purple Hairstreaks, Dingy and Grizzled Skippers, within five miles of home.
I wonder how well known butterfly distribution is. OS Explorer Map 143 covers the chalk areas of west Wiltshire. There are large expanses of private land, presumably downland, given 'right to roam' access since 2000 - I suspect few of these places have ever been explored for butterflies before. I tried one this spring and found Marsh Fritillary and Adonis Blue there.
However I find well-known sites educational; I can learn from watching the butterflies and from talking to the other people watching them. When the time comes for me to look for the Purple Emperor around here I will start by going to see it at somewhere like Bentley Wood; I can pick up more quickly to help me find it locally from watching the butterfly and seeing what sort of places it frequents than by reading about it.
-
Gruditch
- Moderator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 1689
- Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:30 pm
- Location: Hampshire
- Contact:
Alexander, have you been to Bentley Wood when the P.E is about, 
The reason that Bentley is so popular is that the master tree is in the main car park. So the people who go there can stand and chat , whilst looking at a bunch of bannana skins, and get the occasional glips of the P.E. It's not my cup of tea, but they are not doing any harm to anything. As for giving each other exact location info, "being a bit over the top" I think you'll find a lot of us know each other personally, and if a site is at all sensitive then we use P.Ms to pass on info.
Gruditch
The reason that Bentley is so popular is that the master tree is in the main car park. So the people who go there can stand and chat , whilst looking at a bunch of bannana skins, and get the occasional glips of the P.E. It's not my cup of tea, but they are not doing any harm to anything. As for giving each other exact location info, "being a bit over the top" I think you'll find a lot of us know each other personally, and if a site is at all sensitive then we use P.Ms to pass on info.
Gruditch
-
Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6763
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
OK - the sites rating form is back - and a little more fool-proof than before! Unfortunately, the last backup I had was a couple of months old, so some of the ratings have been lost as a result of the idiot who posted junk. So please resubmit information for any sites if it appears to have gone missing - and apologies for the hassle.
Cheers,
- Pete
Cheers,
- Pete
-
Pete Eeles
- Administrator & Stock Contributor
- Posts: 6763
- Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:10 pm
- Location: Thatcham, Berkshire
- Contact:
Gotcha!!!
After the attacks I put in a load of security checks, and the horrible little person who sabotaged the ratings pages last time has been at it again. Except a) this time it didn't work since an administrator needs to approve the changes and b) I have their IP address, which is:
84.92.188.245
which I've traced back to:
address: PlusNet Technologies Ltd
address: Technology Building
address: Terry Street
address: Sheffield
address: S9 2BU
address: UK
phone: +44 114 2200084
This is the ISP - who I've just contacted to report abuse. Can't wait to get their reply.
The DNS (getting closer!) is dohertys.plus.com
If anyone wants to own up to me privately and explain why they're doing this, then I'm all ears. In the meantime, I'm going to keep digging to find out who you are.
Cheers,
- Pete
After the attacks I put in a load of security checks, and the horrible little person who sabotaged the ratings pages last time has been at it again. Except a) this time it didn't work since an administrator needs to approve the changes and b) I have their IP address, which is:
84.92.188.245
which I've traced back to:
address: PlusNet Technologies Ltd
address: Technology Building
address: Terry Street
address: Sheffield
address: S9 2BU
address: UK
phone: +44 114 2200084
This is the ISP - who I've just contacted to report abuse. Can't wait to get their reply.
The DNS (getting closer!) is dohertys.plus.com
If anyone wants to own up to me privately and explain why they're doing this, then I'm all ears. In the meantime, I'm going to keep digging to find out who you are.
Cheers,
- Pete