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I'm trying to take my mind off the vile weather by trying to identify some butterflies from earlier in the year. We spent a few days in the Queyras in early June last year, and have no shortage of photos of Pyrgus to keep me busy. I'm having a go at getting to grips with this genus, but could do with some confirmation I'm going along the right lines! Any help much appreciated.

Taken on 12 June in a 'late' year at Saint-Véran (around 2000 metres). Top row - 1st left ??malvoides, 2nd left ?carthami, 3rd left ?carthami, furthest right ??; bottom row furthest right ??carthami/alveus accretus. Small Blues present to give a helpful sense of scale.

That's an enigma wrapped in a conundrum, Chris.

I wouldn't be confident about identifying any of them with relative certainty.

Hi Matsukaze.

This is surprisingly tricky! The only one I can recognise with confidence is that on the far right bottom corner in the third picture. That is malvoides. Done! The one at top left appears to be malvoides too, even though it also looks substantially bigger. Of the others, none look convincingly like carthami. The only one to show its underside does indeed have a continuous white border on the underside hindwing, a characteristic of carthami, but to me it completely lacks the jizz. Serratulae can show such a continuous border, and this individual has more serratulae than carthami as I see it, but I'm not convinced. The individual second from right in the first two pictures, and third from right in the last picture, looks like armoricanus, but I'd like to see an underside.

I'll wait for some more Pyrgus fans (Roger?) to pitch in before saying more. The one furthest right in the first two pictures is tantalising. I wish I could see the underside!

Guy

Ah - the best kind of winter fun…..

Initially I thought this just looks like a mix of malvoides and serratulae, but as is often the case the more I look the more tricky they become!

Starting with the easier ones I’d say 3 in the last pic are malvoides - bottom right and top left as Guy suggests, and also the one crawling away across the small blue.

The one showing its underside nicely must be a choice between serratulae and carthami (unless I’m missing something) and although I quite like the underside for carthami I can’t make the upperside hind wing work at all so would settle on serratulae as the least worst option.

This leads me to believe that the one on the far right of the first two pics is also serratulae, even though the upperside markings are rather bold compared to the ‘serratulae’ showing its underside.

This leaves the tricky one at the bottom of the first two pics and I agree with Guy and make armoricanus the front runner here. The little we can see of the underside seems to support this but any extra photos of this scene could help tremendously - or confuse things even more! Either way it would be fun to see them if you have anything else…..

Benjamin wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:09 am The one showing its underside nicely must be a choice between serratulae and carthami (unless I’m missing something) and although I quite like the underside for carthami I can’t make the upperside hind wing work at all so would settle on serratulae as the least worst option.

I agree serratulae as the "least unlikely". The marginal band can be white, similar to carthami, so a white band isn't a definitive clue to carthami. There are clues from this underside that point quite strongly to serratulae and would be rather unusual for any other species. Also, serratulae is quite variable in terms of the upperside markings, and can have much stronger upf markings than the books usually show. And it is quite common in the Queyras at 2000m.

Benjamin wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:09 am This leaves the tricky one at the bottom of the first two pics and I agree with Guy and make armoricanus the front runner here. The little we can see of the underside seems to support this but any extra photos of this scene could help tremendously - or confuse things even more! Either way it would be fun to see them if you have anything else…..

I can't see enough of this to offer an opinion, but would just comment that 2000m would be very high for armoricanus. I have spent many hours in the Queyras and have not knowingly seen it there, and I do look at a lot of Pyrgus. That doesn't mean it can't be there, of course. David M - from your many hours in the Queyras - any view on this?
Roger

Hi Roger. I don't think I've ever seen armoricanus above 1,600m.

The time of year when we visit the Queyras isn't ideal for them even at lower altitudes. Generally, we only pick them up in very small numbers (if at all).

They are much commoner during the last week of May in the Pyrenees, with 800-1,200m seemingly being their preferred elevation.

You’ve both convinced me, so I’ll go back to my initial view that it’s a mix of malvoides and serratulae. Looking again at discal s1 (just visible) I can now (just about) see that as serratulae over armoricanus - I thought it was more obviously leaning internally on first glance but in the last pic this is less clear. This is definitely one of these IDs where for me it’s far more of a process of elimination than anything positive - I can’t see what else it could be in early June in a late year at 2000m. I was just over the border in Italy 3 weeks later and it was still very spring-like at altitude.

Thanks folks - I have more photos but they'll require a bit of editing to make clear which Pyrgus is which, if I can work that out. Hopefully in a few days.