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A Challenge
Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 9:01 am
by petesmith
If anyone fancies a challenge during lockdown, it would be interesting to see how many different species people think they can see in the photograph below. I posted this a few days back in the "European Blues" thread, but it occurs to me that it would make a nice challenge, a bit of a Coronavirus Quiz, in one photo.
I reckon I can see 1
Erebia species, 2
Pyrgus species, (possibly 3) and 10
Lycaenids.
Would be fascinating to hear how many others can count.
I shall refrain from naming my individual species list for the moment in case anyone wants to have a go:
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 3:53 pm
by David M
Sure is a challenge, Pete, and I've got sore eyes having looked for half an eternity at this extraordinary gathering.
I'll put my nominations forward in three categories - definite, confident and possible
Definite
False Mnestra Ringlet
Safflower Skipper
Glandon Blue
Idas Blue
Damon Blue
Eros Blue
Mazarine Blue
Mountain Argus
Confident
Oberthur's Grizzled Skipper - to the SE of the Glandon Blue in the middle, partly obscured by the pebble. The submarginal markings on the uph are not 'bullet' shaped, as in Safflower, and the 'clothes peg' looks good too.
Escher's Blue -just to the NE of the aforementioned 'Oberthur's' with wings almost shut and the wings-open one just SW on the other side of the pebble.
Silver Studded Blue - this is what's causing my eyes to ache, trying to spot the candidates. I can't be absolutely certain but there are a few that look likely.
Possible
Chapman's/Common Blue? - this is the one that intrigues me most. Find the central Glandon Blue and there's a Mountain Argus just to the left. A little above it there are two that look to be Idas Blues and on the pebble above, facing to the right is a butterfly that doesn't look like any of the above I've named.
Large Grizzled Skipper? - Middle, towards the left there is a group of pyrgus. There is one wings part open which is weakly marked on the upf and another a bit higher up to the left of aethiopella that is a candidate too. Then, at the very left edge (with part of the hindwings not in shot and beside the Damon and Mazarine facing each other wings closed) there is a third.
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 4:56 pm
by Padfield
Brilliant!
To add to David's 'definites', there are some definite
icarus in there, as he suspects, and definite
argus and
escheri. I can't locate a definite
thersites and I can't string any of the
damon into
amandus, more's the pity!
I'd expect to see
eumedon lurking somewhere in a picture like that but I can't find one either.
On the skipper front, I agree there's a possible
alveus (sadly, too large to be a possible
warrenensis, I think) and I would add definite
malvae/
malvoides (postcode butterflies, and I don't know the postcode of this picture) and probable
serratulae.
I'd love to add a picture of my own, but none of my 'blues groups' comes close to this! Stunning picture.
Guy
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 7:41 pm
by David M
Still can't see the obvious
malvoides, Guy. Maybe it's hiding in plain sight?
I too tried to conjure an
amandus, and that probably gave me the greatest amount of eye-ache after my attempts to identify
argus.
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 8:19 pm
by Padfield
Hi David. I think the one you identified as armoricanus is malvoides (or malvae, depending on where this is!). I hadn't followed your word arrow, to be honest, so hadn't realised this is the one you meant. Tell me why it's not ...
Guy
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Tue May 05, 2020 10:11 pm
by Roger Gibbons
Agree malvoides. Will have a closer look tomorrow. Strongly suspect serratulae and carthami at first glance. I don't find armoricanus to be an altitude species.
I think thersites is there. It sure looks like icarus, but icarus isn't a puddler...
I reserve the right to say differently tomorrow.
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 8:30 am
by petesmith
Many thanks for the input folks.
David, I hope your eyes have recovered, and kudos to you for being brave enough to stick your neck out and commit to a species list so soon!
Guy, many thanks for your comments - I deliberately left out the location, date and altitude initially. I think the presence of aethiopella gives a clue as to the postcode that suggests malvoides rather than malvae, but I stand ready to be corrected...
My list for the Blues included both icarus and thersites, along with argus and idas, but somehow I had completely overlooked escheri!
Regarding the Pyrgus species, the only two that I was confident of were carthami and malvoides. I wouldn't have sufficient confidence without clear undersides to make the call on the possible alveus,serratulae etc , but I eagerly await Roger's further comments.
I shall add location details now : the photograph was taken just south of Lac Egorgiou in the Queyras, 12th July 2017 at 2400m asl.
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 2:22 pm
by Roger Gibbons
Here are a few thoughts mapped onto the image.
I had to reduce the size and quality in order to add the image as it was too large otherwise.
These are really just best guesses.
Pyrgus are impossible to say with any confidence from just an upperside view alone. Especially as
serratulae can vary greatly in the strength of its markings.
I'm unsure about
icarus, mainly on the basis that I rarely see them puddling and I have never seen
icarus higher than 1875m (the electricity station on the Isola 2000 road). I am reasonably sure there is
thersites there from the underside, and I am not sure that the
icarus-looking upperside isn't
thersites as well, despite the colour and the rather thin black border. Could one of those uppersides be
orbitulus?
I have to confess that I didn't see
argus there, but it would be easy to miss it.
Roger
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 3:06 pm
by David M
Padfield wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 8:19 pm
Hi David. I think the one you identified as
armoricanus is
malvoides (or
malvae, depending on where this is!). I hadn't followed your word arrow, to be honest, so hadn't realised this is the one you meant. Tell me why it's not ...
Thanks, Guy. I'm sure you and Roger are both right. Given the perspective, it seemed quite large to me, but then I suppose that's because its nearer the camera than the butterflies behind it.
Oberthur's isn't a particularly high altitude butterfly in my experience, whereas
malvoides certainly is.
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 3:34 pm
by David M
Roger Gibbons wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:22 pm
I'm unsure about
icarus, mainly on the basis that I rarely see them puddling and I have never seen
icarus higher than 1875m (the electricity station on the Isola 2000 road). I am reasonably sure there is
thersites there from the underside, and I am not sure that the
icarus-looking upperside isn't
thersites as well, despite the colour and the rather thin black border. Could one of those uppersides be
orbitulus?
I have to confess that I didn't see
argus there, but it would be easy to miss it.
I recall you telling me you rarely see
icarus puddling and I must say that is my experience too, whereas
thersites is an enthusiastic puddler.
I'm also unsure as to the identity of the one you've put a question mark by, Roger. Similarly, I'm a bit puzzled by the one I've marked myself, next to the Mountain Argus. The upf looks like
escheri but I don't think I've ever seen spots on the uphs before.
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 4:16 pm
by Roger Gibbons
The one you've ringed looks like eros to me, David.
See what Guy and Pete think.
Roger
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 5:14 pm
by Padfield
I think the mystery blue (yellow-ringed in that last picture) is indeed
orbitulus (as I'm sure Roger suspects too). It was nagging at me last night and for some reason (two years away from la Suisse?) the answer didn't come. I agree the blue-ringed one is
eros.
I'm not with Roger on his
escheri, though blues are particularly difficult in still photos, as in the field you see the full range of refractive colours, not just one particular angle. I'll annotate another copy of the pic and add that to the mix ...
Re
argus, the isolated blue smack in the middle (left to right) at the bottom was my cert.
Guy
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 5:24 pm
by petesmith
Roger Gibbons wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 4:16 pm
The one you've ringed looks like
eros to me, David.
See what Guy and Pete think.
Roger
I agree, looks like a definite
eros. Roger, the one that you have as ??, it looks like a good candidate for
orbitulus - can;t match it to anything else, and
orbitulus certainly flies in this area. Good call!
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 7:18 pm
by David M
I don't see that butterfly as
eros.
The nearest thing it looks like is the
polonus I saw in the French Pyrenees a few years ago; pale in colour, no bisecting black lines through the white fringe and spots on the hindwing margins.
I'll post the image again. Roger's mystery Blue is circled yellow (most likely for me is
thersites).
Circled red is what I believe to be a nailed on
eros. The one circled green is quite unlike it.
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 9:08 pm
by Roger Gibbons
I would suggest that that is just natural variation, David.
Here is one that looks just like it:
https://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/htm ... es_14Jul10_
The marginal spotting is quite common for
eros, as is the slight chequering of the fringes. The colour looks right for
eros, and the vein is prominent. An opinion from Guy?
Guy's comment on
escheri - was that the upperside I ringed (which had ??) or the underside, which I think was quite clearly
escheri.
The lone "
argus" botttom middle, could be.The borders look sufficiently broad and solid, albeit with a suggestion of "
idas" triangles.
Roger
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 9:51 pm
by Padfield
A quickie - so no time to upload my own crib sheet!
I'm happy with your
escheri uns, Roger. But the ups towards the bottom left of the picture I see as
icarus. For the reason I mentioned above, about how single shots of blues can be very misleading, I'm quite happy to be wrong on this. It almost has the
escheri antlers (the highlighted veins around the bottom of the forewing cell, which always stand out in
escheri) and the fringes are OK. On the other hand, the lack of dark veins leaking in from the margins makes it look very unlike
escheri, and overall it just screams '
icarus' at me. I have plenty of pictures of
icarus at mud and it's not uncommon at altitude in Switzerland, so I don't have any
a priori reason to rule it out. The lack of furry androconia in a reasonably fresh individual suggests it's not
thersites. BUT as I say, I'm quite happy to accept your judgment that it's
escheri, if you're convinced.
The one David can't see as
eros, I can't really see as anything else, to be honest. It just goes to show how we all pick up on different signals from a butterfly. In the field, all of us would recognise
eros instantly, from the flash of silver as it shifted in the light (apart from anything else). The same is true for
escheri, which I don't think anyone could ever confuse with
icarus in real life. And then there's the phenomenon of semantic satiation: if you say the same word over and over again it drains of meaning, and if you look at the same picture of the same butterfly for long enough it becomes bizarrely unfamiliar!
I'm not really in any doubt about the
argus at the bottom. I'm not sure what you mean about '
idas triangles' though, Roger. If it is the indentations in the hindwing border, that is normal in
argus in my part of Switzerland. At the other end of the country, though, the border is often twice as wide and quite smooth interiorly.
Guy
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Wed May 06, 2020 10:13 pm
by Roger Gibbons
A quick response at this hour - I gave the "
escheri" upperside two question marks (one would mean less uncertainty), so I'm happy with any opinion that it isn't
escheri.
The
argus I see have very broad and smooth borders, or are spotted - as the two male uppersides on my
argus page:
https://www.butterfliesoffrance.com/htm ... es_27Jun09_
Roger
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 6:34 am
by Jack Harrison
Deleted because I upset somebody.
Jack
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 1:52 pm
by David M
Did you take any more images of this scene, Pete? Maybe a few moved slightly giving us another opportunity?
Re: A Challenge
Posted: Thu May 07, 2020 5:06 pm
by petesmith
David M wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 1:52 pm
Did you take any more images of this scene, Pete? Maybe a few moved slightly giving us another opportunity?
Hi David, Yes, at the time I took quite a number of photographs of this spectacle, but, probably in common with many of us, on arriving home I went through my 1000+ photo's from the trip, and kept the best ones, before deleting the "also rans". Sadly, this image was the only one that I saved in my permanent files...unless somewhere I have a back up disc with all of the shots from the trip.
I shall have a look tomorrow, but I think it is unlikely I have any others saved. I do know that John Chapple has some video footage of this scene, as we were there at the same time with our respective "better halves". The video footage may be more enlightening than the still image. If he is following this thread, perhaps he can post a link? Shame I can't tag him, facebook-style!