www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

Guy
I would suggest that at ovipositing Berger's oviposits on the upperside of leaves, whilst Pale on the under surface?

Guy, alfacariensis upperside basal area extends along the inner margin giving this dark area a triangular shape, in hyale it doesn't do this and so forms more of a fan shape in the basal area. Is this right?

Roger: Ah, now there you have me stumped, because I have no idea if you're right!! If you do know this with reliable authority, I must bow to you and pass the buck. It could also prove very useful!! As it is, it's not quite what I had in mind, but is close...

Dave: You are right, but this applies particularly to males and is not at all definitive in females, which may have varying amounts and shapes of black at the base of the wings. I had in mind a circumstance when you feel much more confident than this!!

Guy

um...I thougt Guy said I got it right, maybe not...oh well, keep trying

Well done Dave - at least I have a head sart next time it is your question!!

Unless I've missed something - Guy's question hasn't been answered yet, has it?

Cheers,

- Pete

padfield wrote:... under certain circumstances it is possible to have very great confidence in the identification, even in areas of distributional overlap. Explain.

Because you're talking about the larval stage?

Cheers,

- Pete

Guy
Tolman states the Berger's lays on the upperside of leaves. I couldn't find any reference to Pale's preference, so just mad a wild guess.
It also can't be foodplant selection (my initial hunch) as they both use Hippocrepis comosa.
Hmmmm.................more thought/research needed I think

The Pale clouded Yellow eggs are extremely pale when first laid, but gradually turn deep orange, and purple before hatching. The eggs hatch after approximately 10 days. Whereas the Bergers clouded yellow eggs are a pale yellow when first laid, gradually becoming pink and, eventually, orange prior to hatching. Would ie be the colour of the eggs?

I take the blame for phrasing perhaps an ambiguous, or open-ended, question - though I did try to be precise! It's an hour later here...

Bearing in mind you lot are active and raring for more, and that I will be going to bed soon so I can get up and go Meleager's blue hunting tomorrow, I'll give full credit to Roger.

Yes, I was thinking of foodplant selection, though there are other behavioural indicators. Berger's is remarkably sedentary, and forms colonies on calcareous grassland, where it lays principally on horseshoe vetch but also crown vetch. Thus, if you are not in such a place, and/or the female is laying on something other than those two plants, you know you have a pale clouded yellow female. Most particularly, if she is laying on something different you can be very confident she is not Berger's.

Since pale clouded yellow also lays on horseshoe vetch, you can't be sure of the identity of a buterfly laying on that. But I don't think (not sure about this) pale clouded yellow takes crown vetch.

Roger was there - he just thought I wanted more...

So, all yours, Roger!!

Guy

Dave, your post has crosed again!! You are just proving to me what a bad question I asked, as I again don't know whether you are right!! You deserve to get a question, but Roger did go for the ovipositing first, so I passed the buck to him.

Sorry folks - I 'll try to do better next time...

Dave, your post has crosed again!! You are just proving to me what a bad question I asked, as I again don't know whether you are right!! You deserve to get a question, but Roger did go for the ovipositing first, so I passed the buck to him.

Thats ok, I could see where your coming from, I'll not be so quick to respond. Actually I found what I wrote first on Matt Rowlings site (Not the egg thing which I got on here)

Thanks guy.
Let's try-
Casual pheremone placer at different pub?

Chequered Skipper?

Denise

I think you're correct Denise - although I believe Roger has an extra "e" and a missing "o"

Cheers,

- Pete

Thanks Pete.

Carterocephalus palaemon...Casual pheremone placer at (as well as being the pub near Glapthorne)
I've gone through my entire collection of books with Latin names, and it's the closest I can get.
Let's see what Roger says.

Denise

it may be that pheromone has been spelled pheremone

charles

Denise
You are the winner.
I apologise for the misspelt phere(o)mone - but it wouldn't have worked otherwise
Let's hear yours now Denise.

Cheers Roger.
A hemispherical pea is not an easy thing to find.
I'm going out for a while so don't get it too quick.

Denise

Did your brother see one on a tree in the Pyrenees, by any chance?

My mind was primed...

Guy

Pyrenees be-damned, I saw one on the ground in my local sand dunes.