www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

[quote="Roger Gibbons"]T&L is wrong (or at least misleading) on this. It lists cirsii as a subspecies of carlinae,
Thanks Roger, I grasped the pblm in the end. What a dolt I am
It is a subspecies of carlinae.
Chris

I think the confusion is caused by T&L (and perpetrated by subsequent publications - note LancsRover's mention of a recent book). It lists cirsii as a subspecies of carlinae and says of cirsii "Resembles nominate form". I certainly would not have said so, any more than it resembles several other Pyrgus (and heaven knows they all look alike).

My opinion is that cirsii is not a subspecies of carlinae, as evidenced by publications by Lafranchis and the PACA Atlas to name but a few, who treat these as separate species and make no reference to any connection. At least I have never seen any evidence to suggest that it is and I'm sure DNA was not available to Higgins & Riley (who were exceptionally thorough).

My feeling about T&L is that the "L" is excellent and the "T" is largely lifted from Higgins & Riley where the text was more detailed.

Roger Gibbons wrote:My opinion is that cirsii is not a subspecies of carlinae, as evidenced by publications by Lafranchis and the PACA Atlas to name but a few

Interesting. Let me note that of the cited references, neither is a scientific publication, and neither provides any evidence or justification for their opinion (which is generally required in scientific work). The latest comprehensive revision of the Palearctic species of the genus Pyrgus, as far as I know, is the one by R. de Jong, a highly reputed expert on Hesperiidae (Tijdschrift voor entomologie 115, 1-128, 1972). I haven't done a comprehensive search of the literature, so there may be further works on the topic, although probably none based on DNA as there are no publicly available DNA sequences of either species in the Barcode of Life Database. Anyway, the following quote from de Jong's work provides some clues into why different sources choose to treat the subject differently. It goes on discussing larval development differences etc; for those interested, you can find the whole work on the Biodiversity Heritage Library website.

15. Superspecies Pyrgus carlinae Rambur
Taxonomy. — Until Picard's publication in 1950, carlinae and cirsii were considered separate species, as they differed constantly in facies and genitalia. Picard (1950b) found in the French Alps intermediate specimens almost as numerous as typical specimens, particularly in La Bessée (Hautes Alpes), but he did not give exact data. [....] Apparently, Picard estimated the number of intermediates too high. Guillaumin (1964) mentions a score of 14 % intermediates in the localities where carlinae and cirsii come into contact (Hautes Alpes: La Bessée, Le Lautaret). Additional studies are still in progress (Guillaumin, in litt.). For the present study the most important fact is the interbreeding, as it indicates an incomplete stage of speciation. Contact between the lowland form cirsii and the mountain form carlinae is only known from the French Alps. Apparently, they interbreed wherever they have contact. It is nonsensical to consider them separate species. I prefer to call carlinae and cirsii semispecies, as members of the same superspecies, thus indicating the supposed, rather progressed stage of speciation. But of course, it is also tenable to call them subspecies of a single species, see also Chapter l.b. The decision is not important for the present study.
(De Jong, 1972)

Ah! Very interesting. Thank you for posting this. I had often wondered where the cirsii/carlinae connection came from. I actually am still wondering why Picard states they interbreed – as you say, Nikolay, neither reference provides any evidence. I find De Jong’s statements rather odd: “Apparently, they interbreed wherever they have contact. It is nonsensical to consider them separate species.” – the word “apparently” does not suggest a sufficient degree of confidence to justify the “nonsensical” in the next sentence. This does not sound like good science to me.

Larval developmental differences are mentioned, but what is Picard observing to conclude that they interbreed? External markings? That would be rash. Indeed, the range where cirsii and carlinae overlap must be very small as cirsii’s upper altitude range is 1500m and carlinae’s lower range is (generally) 1500m. Lauteret is at 2000m, so would seem too high for cirsii. The PACA Atlas does indicate some degree of altitude overlap, but as it shows records of carlinae at 200-500m, I’m not sure how reliable these data are. My experience is that cirsii is generally found at 500-1000m and carlinae nearly always above 2000m although I have found the latter exceptionally at 1500m and below in two specific locations.

I have studied the Pyrgus archives at the Natural History Museum in some detail in order to ascertain what are and aren’t reliable features for Pyrgus ID on the basis that I could trust the labelling. The curator said that wasn’t necessarily the case, though.

I am in Var at the moment and will have a good look at the Biodiversity Heritage Library site when I am back in the UK, so thank you for this reference.

Thanks guys for all the info. & discussion.

Wednesday 10th Sept. 2014.
CIRQUE DE GAVARNIE.
Up to 15th September, you are not allowed to drive through the village of Gavarnie, but must park at the entrance, so my opening report is about a scrawny buddleia bush over looking the car park where I'd parked my motorhome. While my lovely wife prepared our sandwiches for the trip up to the cirque, I spotted numerous large frits. and whites flying around this poor excuse for buddleia.

Russ

That is definitely a popular buddleia to attract so much activity.
Looking forward to more Russ.
Chris

Cheers Chris

Cirque de Gavarnie, cont'd.

We walked through the village of Gavarnie towards the cirque, taking the right hand track, away from the busy " coca-cola route", we immediately began to see small b/flies, 3 different kind of skippers, silver-spotted, small skipper and I think the smallest b/fly I have ever seen, I'm not sure because the markings are not a perfect match, but I think it is a Southern Grizzled Skipper?(I stand to be corrected), it's not a great pic. because it never kept still for more than a split second.
Russ.

Hi Russ. Your first skippers are red underwing (Spialia sertorius) and your next two Lulworth.

Guy

I'm having probs with the internet coming and going on my current campsite so reports may be brief(thank God I hear you say).
This is a quick report about the Cirque de Gavarnie with a couple of pics. because I love this place and anybody who comes within 100 miles of Gavarnie must visit it, you won't regret it.

The Cirque de Gavarnie is a colossal mountain amphitheatre, hewn out of limestone,stretching for 3.5km at the base and 14km across the top, all the summit tops are over 3,000 metres high. It has numerous waterfalls, with the Grande Cascade being the highest at 423 metres high.

Thanks Guy,
I went with southern grizzled skipper due to how small it was and I couldn't see any markings on the Lulworth, but I not complaining the Red Underwing is another lifer
Cheers Russ.

Some intoxicating images there, Russ. I'm not sure I have the patience to wait for my next visit to France!

Wow, that's some stunning scenery Russ.
I m back to England this weekend, so we're swapping places!!
Chris

Hi Chris, I hope you enjoy your visit back to the motherland, don't forget your electric blanket

Russ

Last few bits from Gavarnie day.

Russ.

Is this a meadow brown with 2 dots, or something else?
Russ

Friday, 12th Sept. 2014.
PONT D'ESPAGNE/LAC DE GAUBE, French Pyrenees.

A few photo's of the area, butterflies to follow.

Russ.

Lac de Gaube.cont'd.

Large Wall Brown, found next to a very small stream running in to Lac de Gaube.
A beautiful butterfly and a lifer for me

Russ

Hi Russ,
I'm back in France after a short canal boat holiday in Cheshire (saw a couple of Red Admirals and a Specklie along the canal side, but that's about it, which is surprising I suppose considering the good weather back home).

In your post from Sunday 21st, the photo "Common Blues all over the track" appears to have 2 different species in it ?
Some beautiful views you're getting there in the Pyrenees.
I'd agree with the Meadow Brown - I've seen one before with the two white pupils. Good shots of the Large Wall, I never seen any across my way, perhaps its too dry.
Cheers, Chris

Lovely pictures there Russ !! Your Cirque de Gavarnie reminded me of the Infernet Cirque above St Guilhem le Désert ( another butterfly hotspot ).

I thought your Marmot was v. cute

Charles

Loving this Russ,

Makes me want to be down that way as soon as poss.

Thanks