www.ukbutterflies.co.uk

kevling wrote:Whilst the catching of Butterflies for collection purposes is not acceptable, please take a gentle approach to anyone you see with a net. It doesn't mean they are up to no good. I have a net, which I have used this summer to help teach my young daughter about the differences between Essex & Small skippers and male from female Large Skippers. Perfectly acceptable in my opinion, so don't forget it may be innocent people like me that you are harshly challenging.

I acknowledge what you're saying, Kev. My opprobrium in this instance is directed towards those who turn up with nets at a site where rare immigrants are known to have arrived. It is implausible to believe that they are there for any reason other than to 'collect' specimens. That is what I object to, and I'm sufficiently sensible and rational to make allowances on those occasions where this is not the case.

PS - I would almost always make allowances for youngsters armed with nets. After all, I did it when I was a child and usually one can assume that such activities will have an overall beneficial effect in the long term, since children naturally wish to capture wild creatures and in most cases this will lead to them having a greater understanding of wildlife later in their lives.

Pete Eeles wrote:Not sure about that (BC may have an opinion, but it's only an opinion and they are likely to be ignored as a result) - I think that the real point is that nobody is notified of releases of potential migrants and that sightings such as Map can cause confusion for those studying migration, the effects of climate change etc. The same goes for releases of rare species into new sites, potentially misinforming and disrupting conservation efforts. "Irresponsible releasing" would therefore be my concern.

And I'm sure the owner of WWB is more than aware of this potential for his customers to cause confusion, especially since he's one of the founders of BC! But he can't be blamed for the behaviour of his customers!

http://www.dorsetbutterflies.com/about/ ... story.html

Cheers,

- Pete

I fear we are going slightly off topic but anyway. I purchased Map pupae from WWB about 35 years ago to hatch at home and delightful they were. It was WWB that fuelled my interest when I was younger. Swallowtail, Large Tortoiseshell and Alas Moths etc etc were all on my shopping list at some point.
I was aware that the founder of WWB was also a founder of BC. So I have been surprised to read on their website that they actively encourage buyers to start their own colony in the advertising for some of the species on their list. Is WWB still owned by the same family?

In an effort to bring this back on topic and with reference to my previous post. We shall probably never know if these Maps are genuine natural arrivals. The romantics amongst us will believe they are and the sceptics will assume they are releases, but What is the criterion for reclassification of a non native species into a resident species?

One time I challenged a bloke with a net at a rare butterfly site it turned out he was putting butterflies IN! He had permission to do so too. Turned out to be a very interesting chap

jackz432r wrote: ...but What is the criterion for reclassification of a non native species into a resident species?

That's a good question. We accept Painted Ladies, Clouded Yellows and Red Admirals as British species - we see them every year. However, are they "resident" species? Painted Ladies breed, but virtually never persist here throughout the year at any stage; Clouded Yellows but rarely do so; Red Admirals at one time were thought not to, but are now certainly doing so. What would it take for another species to join this list? Annual visits so we are used to seeing them? Do they have to breed here? Or do they have to breed and live here throughout the year?

Dave

We have some definitions here: http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/glossary.php

I think we need to be clear on terminology. The opposite of non-native is native. If those Maps were to breed and result in a home-grown population, then they would become a resident non-native species. I think

[EDIT] Not sure if there's a time factor involved in considering a species as "resident" - i.e. it has bred for X generations.

Cheers,

- Pete

...unless they arrived in the Swanage area naturally, in which case they would be a resident native species.

millerd wrote: That's a good question. We accept Painted Ladies, Clouded Yellows and Red Admirals as British species - we see them every year. However, are they "resident" species? Painted Ladies breed, but virtually never persist here throughout the year at any stage; Clouded Yellows but rarely do so; Red Admirals at one time were thought not to, but are now certainly doing so. What would it take for another species to join this list? Annual visits so we are used to seeing them? Do they have to breed here? Or do they have to breed and live here throughout the year?

I don't think it's necessary for them to overwinter, but they MUST be sufficiently commonplace during the warmer months to be considered British butterflies.

Painted Ladies and Clouded Yellows turn up EVERY year on UK soil, even allowing for the fact that in some years they can appear quite scarce. I think it is this guarantee that qualifies them as bona fide UK butterflies (as well as the fact that they breed freely here once they've arrived).

Matsukaze wrote:...unless they arrived in the Swanage area naturally, in which case they would be a resident native species.

Agreed.

Cheers,

- Pete

David M wrote:

millerd wrote: That's a good question. We accept Painted Ladies, Clouded Yellows and Red Admirals as British species - we see them every year. However, are they "resident" species? Painted Ladies breed, but virtually never persist here throughout the year at any stage; Clouded Yellows but rarely do so; Red Admirals at one time were thought not to, but are now certainly doing so. What would it take for another species to join this list? Annual visits so we are used to seeing them? Do they have to breed here? Or do they have to breed and live here throughout the year?

I don't think it's necessary for them to overwinter, but they MUST be sufficiently commonplace during the warmer months to be considered British butterflies.

Painted Ladies and Clouded Yellows turn up EVERY year on UK soil, even allowing for the fact that in some years they can appear quite scarce. I think it is this guarantee that qualifies them as bona fide UK butterflies (as well as the fact that they breed freely here once they've arrived).

I think this is mixing 2 different points. The first (and the question asked) is what constitutes a resident species - and the Glossary is quite clear. Red Admiral is considered resident (these days). Clouded Yellow and Painted Lady are considered migrants. And some resident species are bolstered by migrants (e.g. Large White). At least, that's according to the definitions we have!

The second is the meaning of a bona fide British butterfly which is quite subjective, depending on how you treat adventives and deliberate introductions (which, until this last week, would have included the Map).

Cheers,

- Pete

Pete Eeles wrote:We have some definitions here: http://www.ukbutterflies.co.uk/glossary.php

I think we need to be clear on terminology. The opposite of non-native is native. If those Maps were to breed and result in a home-grown population, then they would become a resident non-native species. I think

[EDIT] Not sure if there's a time factor involved in considering a species as "resident" - i.e. it has bred for X generations.

Cheers,

- Pete

So if these Maps continued to survive as a growing colony for a number of years (eg 10 years) would they still be classified as non native residents What if Mazarine Blue for instance suddenly reappeared on our shores (however unlikely that may be) through the arrival of an egg bearing vagrant and survived as a growing colony for several years, would they also be considered non - native residents or native residents?? Am I confusing the issue

jackz432r wrote:So if these Maps continued to survive as a growing colony for a number of years (eg 10 years) would they still be classified as non native residents

I depends if the consensus is that the Map arrived here naturally or not. If not, then they would always be non-native residents, no matter how long they've been here. For example, the Grey Squirrel is a non-native resident. If the Map arrived here under their own steam, then they'd be a native resident.

The Mazarine Blue is already considered native so however it gets here it will always be considered a native species.

Again - this is just me thinking out loud!

Cheers,

- Pete

I think Pete is being much too restrictive in his definition of native/non native species .
The Romans for instance introduced a number of species to these islands , the rabbit and edible dormouse being 2 examples . I do not know anyone who would not consider the rabbit as not being a native British species .
If for example fossil evidence was found that 50,000 years ago the Map butterfly was present in the UK would he consider it now to be a native British species rather than an introduced species .

Looking on the web, neither the rabbit nor the edible dormouse are considered native species to Britain!

Cheers,

- Pete

Hi, Gang
I've been told by a friend who runs one of the large livestock suppliers that he has not noticed levana being offered for sale by anyone '...for ages.'
Could someone satisfy my curiosity? What do people who breed such things in captivity do with the (live/surplus) animals once they have 'finished' with them? Kill them; let them die; open the shed door?
Adrian Riley
http://www.bugalert.net

adrian riley wrote:I've been told by a friend who runs one of the large livestock suppliers that he has not noticed levana being offered for sale by anyone '...for ages.'

Hi Ade,

Here's one ad. ... available NOW!!! http://www.wwb.co.uk/map-butterfly-levana-pupae

And they were available from the Entomological Livestock Group last year for sure, and also at last year's AES Exhibition.

adrian riley wrote:What do people who breed such things in captivity do with the (live/surplus) animals once they have 'finished' with them? Kill them; let them die; open the shed door?

Depends on the breeder and the species, I suspect!

Cheers,

- Pete

[quote]Sorry but I can't the hang of this butterfly twitching lark[/quote]
and Jacks reply.

That depends on your definition of twitching. I have to do a round trip of about 600miles to see Northern Brown Argus, Scotch Argus, Mountain Ringlet. Even to see Marsh Fritillary its about 250 miles in total. I don't regard any of them as twitching, just a long and often tiring journey. I would do far less mileage to see the Map butterflies near Swanage. I know what Liz and Jack mean, but I am not sure distance is the criteria. So is it the rarity status? Probably, but then again I regard the Mountain Ringlet as a rarity as I have little opportunity to see it.
Anyway, that is slightly off topic. I note the concern for footfall damage at the Map site. Without knowing details of the actual site conditions I agree that this is another good reason for restricting site details.

Pete Eeles wrote:

adrian riley wrote:I've been told by a friend who runs one of the large livestock suppliers that he has not noticed levana being offered for sale by anyone '...for ages.'

Hi Ade,

Here's one ad. ... available NOW!!! http://www.wwb.co.uk/map-butterfly-levana-pupae

And they were available from the Entomological Livestock Group last year for sure, and also at last year's AES Exhibition.

adrian riley wrote:What do people who breed such things in captivity do with the (live/surplus) animals once they have 'finished' with them? Kill them; let them die; open the shed door?

Depends on the breeder and the species, I suspect!

Cheers,

- Pete

Thanks, Pete

It seems as if I've been told wee porkie pies by someone who, it appears, was selling them last year! I also tried the search engine on WWB this morning and it came back with 'no findings' for this species in stock! I think there may be a few scaredie-cats running for the shadows here!

As a shy, retiring little flower, I have cowered from this controversy, but I am now sufficiently angry to add my views.

As someone who has written books on British Lepidoptera (and bird twitching!), worked for decades for a Government Research establishment trying to monitor the movement of insects in response to environmental changes, and is currently writing a book on Odonata, and offering a free service for people who want to see British Butterflies and Dragonflies, I am getting dog-sick of these unauthorized/informal/unapproved/self-gratifying/egotistical/sometimes illegal/usually futile/ (please add or delete as you feel appropriate) introductions. If my book British and Irish Butterflies... goes to second edition, I will have to document this Dorset phenomenon as best I can without making judgement or accusation. And those words will the be in 'stone' long after I am gone and, unless I am extremely diplomatic, always will be regarded with scepticism as if from my own pen.

With regard to keeping the levana site secret, forget it! I now know where it is because I have, for the above reasons, the motivation to find out. Collectors also have that kind of motivation and I should be very surprised if they have not already been there or laid their plans for a visit. If a thief wants to break into your house, then he will (despite the alarm system). It's not a matter of if your computer will be hacked, it's when (despite the antivirus system). And there will be many a cabinet now containing beautiful specimens of Large Blue butterflies and White-tailed Eagle eggs-despite the fact they are protected and not even of native origin. If a highly-motivated hunter is after his prey, he will find it. Those of you that have worked with me in the field will know that I know.

After Pete put me right on the availability of levana livestock I was disheartened and disappointed that I had apparently been lied to. When I found out that the site has complete and oft-used public access, I could barely believe the secrecy that the finders imposed. When I then found that just about every birder in Dorset knows where they are, I was gob-smacked. I have promised Pete that I will not divulge on Bugalert those sites and records that are deemed by either he, I, or BC to be sensitive and so I shall stand by my word.

But a couple of lessons here:

1 Don't just pull over from the road to do some '[butte]fly-tipping'.

2 If you really must chuck bucket-loads of butterflies at a site where they don't belong, at least be an honourable coward and inform the local authorities (anonymously, of course) that you have done so. We'll then know, as bona fide recorders, where we stand and you can disappear into the night and massage your ego in any way that you wish.

3 Don't EVER get aggressive with someone carrying a net. You must NEVER take the law into your own hands.

4 Please try to accept and respect that arguments regarding killing insects are often based on ethical, moral or emotional reasons. As such, no amount of 'logical' discussion will win the day. Not all cats are bad and not all dogs are good (In der nacht, alle Katze sind grau).

5 An avid collector will know about rarities long before you do

6 We are all friends here and internal personal sniping is bang out of order- whether you are a Birder or a Bugger.

Bye for now,
Adrian Riley
www,bugalert.net

Interesting information, Adrian.

It's clear you are more familiar than most with the situation vis-à-vis these collectors. How many of them (roughly) do you think there are out there? (I think someone else asked this question earlier in the thread).

I've never been called a "bugger" before ... then again

Thanks for the considered response Adrian. How would you suggest anyone offloading stock let "the authorities" know, so that we're better-informed of their origin? I suspect the lack of anonymity would put folks off. And so, if anyone reading this wants to own up to the release of Map at the Swanage site, then do let me know privately so that we can bring this to a conclusion - you have my word that your name and contact details will go no further.

On that note, I've been informed that no Map were seen today.

Cheers,

- Pete

I so whole heartedly agree with Adrian's comment.............having had to contend with Purple Emperor releases in the East of England and listened to people claiming that our sightings are related............or they were extinct.............so they had to re-introduce them..............this is a particular bug bear of mine.

I should say that I found the link yesterday by entering the scientific name in google as opposed to Map!

I have long since been of the believe that collectors know more about species and sites than us poor innocent recorders. Keeping site locations secret just means that there are less people looking and the collectors can get in un-unnoticed. the problem though is when the site is private and the owners ask for the embargo.

Liz