How can this be legal??

[Pete Eeles]

By "amateur", I don't mean the opposite of "expert" or "professional". What I should have said is "inexperienced". My point is that we don't want anyone attempting captive-rearing of any rare or difficult-to-rear species until they've managed to captive-rear common and easy species. That was the only point I was making. That way they can build up the experience needed.

To be honest, I'm not sure what you're suggesting specifically - but I'm concerned about each interpretation I have:

1. That everyone should start rearing rare species (those that would warrant a "reintroduction") before they've mastered the basics? Where would the stock come from? The wild?

2. That everyone should attempt translocation of individuals from one site to another, diminishing the donor population and possibly mixing separate races?

BTW - depending on the species, you make need a license to take or move individuals. There are processes in place (red tape) and for good reason - ensuring that the donor population can withstand any removal of individuals, and ensuring that the target site is suitable, for example. If any Tom, Dick or Harry were to make their own decisions, then I suspect we'd end up with a lot of failed reintroduction attempts - hence my original comment about losing butterflies! I don't think "trial and error" by inexperienced enthusiasts is a good idea.

Cheers,

- Pete

[Gruditch]

CC, are you suggesting that some highly qualified academics, lack a bit of common.



Mark, this is a link to BC introduction policy, if you feel strongly that a species warrants an introduction. Then I would suggest that there is a opportunity for you go though the appropriate channels.



http://www.butterfly-conservation.org/t ... icies.html


kind Regards Gruditch

[Mark Senior]

Pete , you have made your point a little clearer by redefining amateur and professional into inexperienced and experienced . More logical , yes , but who defines when someone becomes "experienced" , will there be an examination with certificate and issued by whom and will the whom be paid and who will pay them .
I understand your concerns re diminishing donor populations and mixing of races but let's get real , this is not something that as you put it "everyone" will do . The vast majority of the population have no interest in doing any sort of reintroduction whatsover . Of the small % who would have an interest in doing so , the majority of those ( I would put myself in this group ) do not have the time and or knowledge to do so . The tiny number of people left would I surmise meet your definition of experienced .
Grudditch , thanks for the link . there are , on their own , many sensible points in the BC introduction/reintroduction policy BUT there are too many of them , so many that if they were all followed to the letter there would be no reintroductions at all which I suspect is the real aim of the policy .
There is a major difference of opinion here between those who want no reintroductions other than natural migration but would allow an expert led reintroduction under 1,001 conditions and others who would favour a mass reintroduction ( subject to not putting at risk donor populations) . To give just one example , I would donate money ( in the absence of any practical help or knowledge ) to a reintroduction of say the Duke Of Burgundy to 100 former or new sites that have possibly suitable habitat . If at the end of the day it became reestablished in just 15/20 sites I would class this as a success .

[Cotswold Cockney]

CC, are you suggesting that some highly qualified academics, lack a bit of common.

kind Regards Gruditch

Would I ever ... Hush your mouth Gruditch .... and open your eyes if your query is genuine ....
..

..... that if they were all followed to the letter there would be no reintroductions at all which I suspect is the real aim of the policy .

Hey, a kindred spirit ...


.... and it would make the box tickers' lot that much easier ... until it is all too late.
.

[Mark Senior]

..... that if they were all followed to the letter there would be no reintroductions at all which I suspect is the real aim of the policy .

Hey, a kindred spirit ...


.... and it would make the box tickers' lot that much easier ... until it is all too late.
.[/quote]

The box ticker's life would be made much easier if there were just 1 or 2 sites where they knew they had to go to complete a box .

[lee3764]

..... that if they were all followed to the letter there would be no reintroductions at all which I suspect is the real aim of the policy .

Hey, a kindred spirit ...


.... and it would make the box tickers' lot that much easier ... until it is all too late.
.

The box ticker's life would be made much easier if there were just 1 or 2 sites where they knew they had to go to complete a box .[/quote]

Dear Mark & others,

I hope to god that day never comes!!!!! Is it any wonder I visited Scotland 15+ times over the last 20 years (1300 miles round trip from Cornwall!!) to find more wide open habitats where I can get peace & solitude & still find some species in habitats that are not just restricted to the bounderies of a nice nature reserve completely surrounded by near sterile arable land/false green land. How refreshing 2 years ago to show my Wife & 2 young children a female Chequered Skipper nectaring on Bugle in the garden of our rented cottage north of Fort William but still 5 miles or so from 'my' discovered colony at a Glen where I could watch them in good numbers! Yes!!! you can still make new & very important discoveries in Scotland whilst not being hasselled & often these are of strong importance! I've never come across anyone getting stroppy at a net carrier in Scotland either (well not the parts I've been to anyway!).
I did get approached by a policeman (in uniform!!) about 16 years ago who drove out on a single track road & then trecked out to me in the undergrowth some years ago in this isolated Glen (Glen Loy, where I did my article entitled 'Revisiting a colony of Chequered Skippers) dated 4th May 2010 on UK Butterflies home page if you want to read it) where I had slept in my car overnight to save money on B & B costs when I was carrying a net & I thought when he was approaching me 'well I haven't done anything wrong so don't worry'; 'I said errrrr....what seems to be the problem officer? Is it me carrying a net?' He said 'No....no problem with that Sir; it's just that there was some deer poaching going on in this Glen during last night by men with high power rifles & had I seen anything or anyone?' I had not & told him so & I asked him about my net & he said that that was no problem at all with using a net & carry on studying the butterflies & moths & wished me well but the landowners do not tolorate poaching & then the poachers making large & illegal profits from it! Afterwards I did feel a bit uneasy about having been alone in my car that previous night with blokes with high powered rifles not far away & me not being aware of it!
Funny how things like this get overlooked but if someone is seen netting anything or picking a larva or egg from a plant they are the world's worst in some eyes!
Lee (Cornwall).

[Jack Harrison]

lee 3764 was :

....approached by a policeman (in uniform!!) ....no problem with that Sir; it's just that there was some deer poaching going on....

I am reminded of an event way back in my youth. I had parked off the road late one evening with my girl friend. I don’t need to go into details, but at a most inconvenient moment, we became aware of a torch flashing outside. It was the police! “Just checking for poachers Sir. There have been some problems here recently”.

Jack

[Pete Eeles]

I think it is a prime requirement for butterfly enthusiasts to attempt to reintroduce species to new potentially suitable sites and to improve the gene pool by transferring butterflies between distant sites.

I understand your concerns re diminishing donor populations and mixing of races but let's get real , this is not something that as you put it "everyone" will do.

I agree - but you seem to suggest they should? Perhaps I misunderstood your first comment above?

... but who defines when someone becomes "experienced"

Of course, there's no "hard and fast" measure!

Of the small % who would have an interest in doing so , the majority of those ( I would put myself in this group ) do not have the time and or knowledge to do so.

And do those without the knowledge know that they don't have the knowledge?

There is a major difference of opinion here between those who want no reintroductions other than natural migration but would allow an expert led reintroduction under 1,001 conditions and others who would favour a mass reintroduction ( subject to not putting at risk donor populations).

I think the 2 ends of the spectrum are "those who want no reintroductions other than natural migration but would allow an expert led reintroduction under 1,001 conditions", as you say, and the other end are who would favour a mass reintroduction without any qualification whatsover.

To give just one example, I would donate money ( in the absence of any practical help or knowledge ) to a reintroduction of say the Duke Of Burgundy to 100 former or new sites that have possibly suitable habitat.

But there are surely other criteria other than "suitable habitat". For example, should these be attempted by just anyone, as you suggested? I'd hate to see existing colonies depleted to support a reintroduction by someone who didn't know what they were doing. Which has been my point from the start!

Cheers,

- Pete

[lee3764]

lee 3764 was :

....approached by a policeman (in uniform!!) ....no problem with that Sir; it's just that there was some deer poaching going on....

I am reminded of an event way back in my youth. I had parked off the road late one evening with my girl friend. I don’t need to go into details, but at a most inconvenient moment, we became aware of a torch flashing outside. It was the police! “Just checking for poachers Sir. There have been some problems here recently”.

Jack

Ha Ha Ha Ha Haaaaaaaaa...................Great stuff!!!.............Eerrrrrrrrrrrr what were you doing Jack? If it's what I think then it must embarrassing even now to admit? Who was the most embarrassed? You; your girlfriend or the policeman? Or maybe you were sugaring late at night for moths? Or even searching for various brown butterfly larvae that only crawl up grass stems when it is dark to feed?
Lee (Cornwall).

[lee3764]

With regard to your earlier post, Lee ...

"'Tick & click' refers to those who are NOT hands on entomologists ... the real Lepidopterists/Entomologists"
I've no idea what the "hands on" or "real" entomologists are. I wonder if I'm one?

I believe you reared a Duke Of Burgundy through to an adult earlier this year Pete & then photographed it on a forget-me-not flower (I think?) which was posted on here & was an excellent photo indeed & then you released the adult back in it's original locality. Assuming I remembered this correctly then this one example of what I mean by 'Hands on Lepidopterist/Entomologist' This species is easy to rear on potted Cowslip & usually overwinters as a pupa to then emerge the following April/May. Rather than having a 2-4% chance in the wild, that larva should have a 80-90% chance in captivity & then is released back into it's original colony to continue the next life-cycle. If I did remember that correctly Pete then well done & good for you for going to the trouble to release it back into it's original habitat.

"A year or so ago there were people virtually pushed or barged away from the best Large Blues at Collard Hill by several semi-aggressive photo hunting photographers looking for that perfect shot! Disgusting behaviour I say"
I completely agree.

"& not how true Lepidopterists/Entomologists behave!"
I completely disagree. I've met some well-known entomologists who are also photo hunting photographers / bullies / etc. I think your distinction is artificial, and you're simply talking about behaviours that decent people exhibit (or not!). But to say that "real" entomologists are decent, and everyone else isn't, is clearly not the case! I did not state that everyone else are not decent people. If a well-known entomologist is a bully then I (this is MY opinion) do not define that sort of person as a true Lepidopterist/Entomologist. They have to earn their respect & there is absolutely NO reason why photo hunting enthusiasts of any social or professional standing need to behave like an arrogant pig just to get their photo at the expense of other more respectable folk! Years, decades, centuries ago Lepidopterists and Entomologists were Gentlemen who respected each other & I know that there is precious little of those words respect, manners & courtesy in this day & age but with this hobby I thought it still mainly involved Ladies & Gentlemen.


Cheers,

- Pete

Cheers again,
Lee. (My comments are in Bold after the points Pete made last night to my answers to his questions.)

[lee3764]

The Photographer's Eye

One of my favourite photography books is "The Photographer's Eye" by Michael Freeman. It focuses on composition and discusses not only lines, curves and the like, but also colour (and which colours work well together). A newly-emerged female Duke (the result of an egg I bred through last year) gave me the opportunity to try different poses and colour schemes - before she was safely released where she came from. The combination of advice from the book, and advice from John Bogle (Fishiee) and others at the 2010 photography workshop, all came into play. Result below. I'll definitely be getting up early from now on to catch the critters while they're still roosting

Cheers,

- Pete
download/file.php?id=5978&t=1file.php?id=5978&t=1[img]
Pete Eeles
Administrator & Stock Contributor


Private messageWebsitePersonal album [/img]

IMG_9596.jpg

Hi Pete,
After 20 minutes or so of searching I found your posting dated May 17th, 2010 at 8:40pm with the brilliant Duke photo you took. Don't know if the photo/image will show up on this thread though!
Above is the posting Pete from May 17th. Where can I get that book you refer to 'The Photographers Eye'? I'm sure I could learn plenty from it.
Cheers,
Lee.

[Neil Jones]

Let me make a couple of points.
On my point about Large Coppers. They are pretty much unique in having been in captivity for decades. Therefore as I said they will be likely to have evolved some degree of domestication. It may not be obvious but it will have occurred.

The other point about introductions is this. You are all not looking at the science properly. It has been studied . There is a study published.

INTRODUCTIONS ONLY RARELY WORK.

That is why they need to be done properly not just anyone releasing anything anywhere. This creates problems with temporary colonies of rare species. Diverted conservation help and a false picture of the species status.

[Mark Senior]

The other point about introductions is this. You are all not looking at the science properly. It has been studied . There is a study published.

INTRODUCTIONS ONLY RARELY WORK.

That is why they need to be done properly not just anyone releasing anything anywhere. This creates problems with temporary colonies of rare species. Diverted conservation help and a false picture of the species status.

You make some very bold clear statements for your point of view , Neil , can you provide some evidence to back it up ?

[Gruditch]

I'm betting he can.

Regards Gruditch

[Neil Jones]

The figures are all in the publication "A review of butterfly Introductions in Britain and Ireland. by M.R. Oates and M. S Warren.
I would think that Matthew Oates and Martin Warren would know what they are talking about.

[Mark Senior]

The figures are all in the publication "A review of butterfly Introductions in Britain and Ireland. by M.R. Oates and M. S Warren.
I would think that Matthew Oates and Martin Warren would know what they are talking about.

Published in 1990 so now some 20 plus years old .
Perhaps knowledge has moved on somewhat in 20 years even in the world of entomology . The succrssful reintroduction and expansion of the Large Blue population occurred largely after the book was written .

[Neil Jones]

I'm betting he can.

Regards Gruditch

Of course I wouldn't have said there were published data if I couldn't say what they were. (Data remember is a plural noun. Latin second declension nominative plural if you want the precise form.)

And to add to the other posting with some specific figures that I was using some years ago.
According to the published data there had been 56 attempted introductions
of the Marsh Fritillary only 3 or 4 lasted more than about 3 years and there was
not one single long term success.
The figures were showing the same sort of results for most of the butterfly species with the Lycaenids showing a significantly higher degree of success.
Most like the Marsh Frits fail to take.

The Cumbrian introductions have a greater chance of success because they are being done on a landscape scale and habitat management is being ensured.
If you want the low down on the science of why this is more likely to succeed these books should help.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Metapopulation- ... =8-1-spell
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Metapopulation- ... =8-2-spell

[Mark Senior]

I'm betting he can.

Regards Gruditch

Of course I wouldn't have said there were published data if I couldn't say what they were. (Data remember is a plural noun. Latin second declension nominative plural if you want the precise form.)

And to add to the other posting with some specific figures that I was using some years ago.
According to the published data there had been 56 attempted introductions
of the Marsh Fritillary only 3 or 4 lasted more than about 3 years and there was
not one single long term success.
The figures were showing the same sort of results for most of the butterfly species with the Lycaenids showing a significantly higher degree of success.
Most like the Marsh Frits fail to take.

The Cumbrian introductions have a greater chance of success because they are being done on a landscape scale and habitat management is being ensured.
If you want the low down on the science of why this is more likely to succeed these books should help.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Metapopulation- ... =8-1-spell
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Metapopulation- ... =8-2-spell

Yes Neil , but have you any up to date 21st century references , I don't mind if they are in Latin , I did learn that at school but even so I don't think myself superior because of that obscure fact .

[Jack Harrison]

lee 3764 wrote about an earlier post I had made:

If it's what I think then it must embarrassing even now to admit?

I'm not embarrassed at all but this group is frequented by some young people who might find it a little difficult to think what their grandparents' generation got up to

I am further reminded of a cartoon (rather the opposite reaction). Lord of the manor is doing a tour round his grounds with his Estate Manager John Smith when they come across a couple in the grass: “You know Smith; I didn’t think young people still did that sort of thing.”

Jack

[Jack Harrison]

lee 3764 wrote about an earlier post I had made:

If it's what I think then it must embarrassing even now to admit?

I'm not embarrassed at all but this group is frequented by some young people who might find it a little difficult to think what their grandparents' generation got up to

I am further reminded of a cartoon (rather the opposite reaction).

Lord of the manor is doing a tour round his grounds with his Estate Manager John Smith when they come across a couple in the grass: “You know Smith; I didn’t think young people still did that sort of thing.”

Jack